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Re: [Wlug] Getting your mom on Linux?IO
by Mike Perry 05 Jul '07

05 Jul '07

Good suggestion, but I don't think my mother would understand the concept of dual-booting. She would probably just end up booting into Widnows and not switching -- or I would get phone calls all day saying "I am in Linux again I don't know how I got here". ~Mike > > On Thursday 05 July 2007 12:37:23 pm Jamie Guinan wrote: <snip> > > > > > > This sounds like a good time to upgrade her hard drive. Put a new, > > > larger drive in her computer and install Kubuntu onto that. Try > > > everything out, and if something doesn't work, put the old drive back > > > in until you can figure out a solution. > > > > Or put in the 2nd hard drive and leave the 1st one in there, and set > > it up to dual-boot. She can still boot Windows to do her Citrix > > stuff, and she can use Linux for web surfing (no spyware), and you can > > try migrating iPod/printing/etc. over time. > > > > -Jamie > > > > > I'd answer your specific questions if I knew the answers. > > > > > > -- > > > Rich > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wlug mailing list > > > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > > > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wlug mailing list > > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

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Re: [Wlug] Getting your mom on Linux?
by Jamie Guinan 05 Jul '07

05 Jul '07

On Thu, 5 Jul 2007, Klein, Richard wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike Perry > > > > Hi all, > > > > I visited my parents yesterday and yet again my mother's > > computer is filled with spyware. Everytime I go there it is > > slower and slower and odd things keep happening (like icons > > disappearing ... I've witnessed this myself). > > > > I've been considering trying to get her onto Kubuntu, but I > > have a few valid concerns. I'm curious if anyone has any > > experience with the following under Linux (any flavor): > > > > * Citrix connectivity -- She currently, and very seldom, > > uses an ActiveX control in IE to connect to her work. Are > > there alternatives besides using IE and Wine or running a VM? > > > > * iPod which is currently registered with her Windows box. > > I'm not too familiar with this, because my mp3 is not an iPod. > > > > * Printing - She currently has a very nice Canon i960 which > > can print photos. > > I less concerned about drivers and more about functionality. > > Her current Windows based software can print wallets, 8x10s, > > etc very easily. I wouldn't want her to lose that ability. > > > > I know some of these answers might be a Google away, but I'm > > curious on your experiences with this and possibility any > > other gothcya's that I am not thinking about. > > > > If I could overcome these hurdles I think she would actually > > have a much pleasant experience with her home pc. I've slowly > > been getting her to adopt open source software, but this > > would be a big jump. I also think it would be much easier for > > me help remotely too. > > This sounds like a good time to upgrade her hard drive. Put a new, > larger drive in her computer and install Kubuntu onto that. Try > everything out, and if something doesn't work, put the old drive back in > until you can figure out a solution. Or put in the 2nd hard drive and leave the 1st one in there, and set it up to dual-boot. She can still boot Windows to do her Citrix stuff, and she can use Linux for web surfing (no spyware), and you can try migrating iPod/printing/etc. over time. -Jamie > I'd answer your specific questions if I knew the answers. > > -- > Rich > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >

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JOB - Implementation Engineer (Boston, MA)
by Tal Cohen 30 Jun '07

30 Jun '07

I forgot to provide the company information, here it is: Company Name: SiteSpect, Inc (www.sitespect.com) Position: Implementation Engineer Location: Boston, MA Tal

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JOB - Implementation Engineer (Boston, MA)
by Tal Cohen 30 Jun '07

30 Jun '07

Hi Folks, The company that I work for has just opened a position that some of you may be interested in. The description is listed below. For the right person, this can be a dream job. Feel free to email me with any questions about the position or the company. Here is the position: The Implementation Engineer is a technical product expert who installs, configures and supports SiteSpect's software and appliance products. This is a technical position that requires knowledge of Unix systems management, Web applications, and networking/DNS. Although a technical position, the Implementation Engineer wears many customer-facing hats. Candidates should be able to demonstrate a history of working with both technical (IT) and non-technical (business and marketing) stakeholders to define requirements, plan projects, and ultimately deliver technical solutions. Excellent writing and verbal communication skills are a necessity. Required technical skills include: * Web server configuration, tuning & administration * Linux/Unix administration * shell scripting such as bash, Perl, python or PHP * knowledge of DNS, networking and load balancing Roles also include scheduled on-call duty and occasional travel to assist customers with installation and system maintenance. Candidates should have experience working in a team environment alongside other engineers and product managers. You should be comfortable with the dynamic and fast pace that is typical for an Internet software startup. This is a full time position located in our office in downtown Boston, MA. We are minutes away from Park Street MBTA stop, central to all subway and commuter rail lines. If this sounds like you, then SiteSpect might be your next home. As the company that leads its market space in power and innovation, we guarantee excitement, challenge and an unlimited opportunity to contribute. Tal

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Unix admin opening
by Frank Sweetser 21 Jun '07

21 Jun '07

We now return you to your regularly scheduled boringly relevant job postings. WPI is looking for a unix administrator. Standard complement of skills required, mostly RHEL systems, some HPC clustering administration, and a fair bit of Windows interop stuff. http://www.wpi.edu/cgi-bin/HR/New/showjob.cgi?job_type=AE&job_id=441 Feel free to send a resume either to HR directly, or to me and I'll pass it along through the inside channel. -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu | For every problem, there is a solution that WPI Senior Network Engineer | is simple, elegant, and wrong. - HL Mencken GPG fingerprint = 6174 1257 129E 0D21 D8D4 E8A3 8E39 29E3 E2E8 8CEC

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Re: [Wlug] Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters
by albutler33＠netscape.net 21 Jun '07

21 Jun '07

Re: Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters problem Andy, b) Any recruiter who abuses the list by failing to ask permission prior to posting, or by an excessive volume of emails, will be asked to stop (including removal from the membership list if necessary). How would you define excessive? Al Butler -----Original Message----- From: wlug-request(a)mail.wlug.org To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Sent: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:19 am Subject: Wlug Digest, Vol 44, Issue 10 Send Wlug mailing list submissions to wlug(a)mail.wlug.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to wlug-request(a)mail.wlug.org You can reach the person managing the list at wlug-owner(a)mail.wlug.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Wlug digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: JOB - Senior Operations Engineer - Boston, MA (Tal Cohen) 2. Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters (Andy Stewart) 3. Re: Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters (Andy Stewart) 4. Re: Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters (Chuck Anderson) 5. Re: JOB - Senior Operations Engineer - Boston, MA (Mark Richards) 6. Re: Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters (Andy Stewart) 7. Re: Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters (Mike Leo) 8. Re: Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters (Andy Stewart) 9. Re: JOB - Senior Operations Engineer - Boston, MA (Keith Wright) Attached Message From: Tal Cohen <wlug(a)cohen123.com> To: 'Jamie Guinan' <guinan(a)bluebutton.com>; 'Worcester Linux Users Group' <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> Subject: Re: [Wlug] JOB - Senior Operations Engineer - Boston, MA Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:12:46 -0400 So, here is a question: What are the guidelines for posting a relevant job opening to this group? My reason for asking is because the company that I work for is about to open a few reqs, and I want to get the bounty :) Seriously (although I do want the bounty), the positions will be appropriate for the group. Thanks, Tal -----Original Message----- From: wlug-bounces(a)mail.wlug.org [mailto:wlug-bounces@mail.wlug.org] On Behalf Of Jamie Guinan Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 4:59 PM To: Worcester Linux Users Group Subject: Re: [Wlug] JOB - Senior Operations Engineer - Boston, MA > The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the person(s= > ) or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or pr= > ivileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use o= > f, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or= > entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received = > this email in error, please contact the sender and permanently delete the e= > mail from any computer. Delete the email... from *any* computer? "Pardon me Fred, I need to borrow your PC for a few minutes..." -Jamie _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug Attached Message From: Andy Stewart <andystewart(a)comcast.net> To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> Subject: [Wlug] Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:00:53 -0400 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 HI gang, Tal Cohen wrote: > So, here is a question: What are the guidelines for > posting a relevant job > opening to this group? This is a very good question! In general, I personally frown upon random recruiters posting job openings on the WLUG mailing list, especially when they don't have the courtesy of asking permission. Having the list as writable only by list members helps to keep this type of email traffic minimized. However, there have been a couple of recruiters in the past who asked permission prior to posting, which I did grant (John Spencer is one such individual). I specifically asked John to preface his subject with "JOB" or "JOBS" so people could filter accordingly, and he has done what was asked. Also, John's posts have been very Linux relevant IMHO. In the interest of fair disclosure, I've worked with John in the past and my employer has hired people represented by him. I have also had recruiters send the job posting to me, asking me to forward it to the list. If relevant, I forward the post, but sometimes I have deleted them if I thought they were not relevant. Having said all of that, I recognize that this mailing list belongs to all of us and not just to me. At any time, we as a group can choose to change our policy. Admittedly, even if every recruiter who posted asked permission and used the "JOB" subject, the volume of email could become more than we'd like. To date, this has not happened. I have not yet heard anybody complain about a group member posting a relevant job opening for their employer. In today's particular case, I suspect that if the recruiter were informed of our policy, he would be happy to comply. Although it is our email list, how we react on the list is a reflection of the group as a whole. In summary, I propose the following for your consideration: a) Recruiters who wish to post to the WLUG mailing list need to request permission to do so, and if granted, preface the subject with "JOB" so people can filter accordingly. As acting president, I presume that the permission would be granted by me. b) Any recruiter who abuses the list by failing to ask permission prior to posting, or by an excessive volume of emails, will be asked to stop (including removal from the membership list if necessary). c) Group members may post relevant job openings as long as they preface the subject with "JOB". I invite constructive discussion on the proposal, and counter proposals if appropriate. Thanks, Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGdxy1Hl0iXDssISsRAuEzAJ9BjH5OEKb2KczS2uST4Y1F4p0VSACcDbNf SShrPI1odk0K9WH68GLiSBA= =jOVI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Attached Message From: Andy Stewart <andystewart(a)comcast.net> To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> Subject: Re: [Wlug] Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:23:39 -0400 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andy Stewart wrote: > In summary, I propose the following for your consideration: > > a) Recruiters who wish to post to the WLUG mailing list need to request > permission to do so, and if granted, preface the subject with "JOB" so > people can filter accordingly. As acting president, I presume that the > permission would be granted by me. I just thought of something. When a person who is not a list member attempts to post a message to the group, the email is sent to the list moderator for approval. This is currently Frank Sweetser (and I think Chuck Anderson, also). In the event that a recruiter attempts to post without first becoming a group member, I have full trust in the list moderator's judgment to implement our group policy. Later, Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGdyILHl0iXDssISsRAgNmAJsGz/nTV+HCanWwh3V/ZZQ38r7M/QCfZXtD GuE/sWwnwCdq4pIDU7/k4LQ= =UUDG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Attached Message From: Chuck Anderson <cra(a)WPI.EDU> To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Subject: Re: [Wlug] Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:25:44 -0400 On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 08:23:39PM -0400, Andy Stewart wrote: > In the event that a recruiter attempts to post without first becoming a > group member, I have full trust in the list moderator's judgment to > implement our group policy. The problem in this case was that the user subscribed to the list, and then immediately sent the JOB posting. So he was already a "group member". Attached Message From: Mark Richards <mark.richards(a)massmicro.com> To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> Subject: Re: [Wlug] JOB - Senior Operations Engineer - Boston, MA Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:13:04 -0400 Tal Cohen wrote:? > So, here is a question: What are the guidelines for posting a relevant job? > opening to this group? My guess is that policy need not be set if participants would exercise basic courtesy: ask first.? ? You did that. Good show.? ? /m? ? ? Attached Message From: Andy Stewart <andystewart(a)comcast.net> To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Subject: Re: [Wlug] Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:42:22 -0400 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chuck Anderson wrote: > On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 08:23:39PM -0400, Andy Stewart wrote: >> In the event that a recruiter attempts to post without first becoming a >> group member, I have full trust in the list moderator's judgment to >> implement our group policy. > > The problem in this case was that the user subscribed to the list, and > then immediately sent the JOB posting. So he was already a "group > member". Yes, and I have a couple of thoughts on that. 1) I believe this is the first time a recruiter has done this, but I could be wrong. 2) We as a group have every right to determine what is acceptable email on the list. In my opinion, if any group member abuses the list, they should be first asked to stop and then have their privileges revoked if they continue to abuse the list. The post did mention Linux, it did have "JOB" in the subject, however, the recruiter did not ask permission to use our list. Is that sufficient cause for immediate revocation from the list? Perhaps so, perhaps not - you tell me. I don't recall anybody asking this particular recruiter to stop doing what he did. We should revoke with care. If done harshly, it could damage the group reputation. 3) I opened the topic for discussion because I want to be sure that folks who are normally less vocal on the group mailing list have a chance to air their opinions. 4) The end result of these discussions should be posted on the website as a group policy so guests to our mailing list will understand what we expect of them. Thanks, Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGdyZuHl0iXDssISsRAqF1AJwKnQMShnVbgX0A1x5ebbL3pUcESACfTn0H pQOtgCZU7i/Zbd/muSg7r20= =2oDQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Attached Message From: Mike Leo <mleo963(a)yahoo.com> To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> Subject: Re: [Wlug] Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Does a job posting really warrant this much discussion? I know I haven't participated much lately, but the emails discussing the spam job posting have been more spam-like than the original possible spam posting. spamspamspamspamspamspamspameggsspam. Anyway, I also posted a job posting earlier today.? Hope I did not break the rules. Mike ----- Original Message ---- From: Chuck Anderson <cra(a)WPI.EDU> To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 8:25:44 PM Subject: Re: [Wlug] Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 08:23:39PM -0400, Andy Stewart wrote: > In the event that a recruiter attempts to post without first becoming a > group member, I have full trust in the list moderator's judgment to > implement our group policy. The problem in this case was that the user subscribed to the list, and then immediately sent the JOB posting.??So he was already a "group member". _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug Attached Message From: Andy Stewart <andystewart(a)comcast.net> To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> Subject: Re: [Wlug] Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:51:44 -0400 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mike Leo wrote: > Does a job posting really warrant this much discussion? Hi Mike, Normally, no, but this subject has come up before, and I'd like to settle it. > > I know I haven't participated much lately, but the emails discussing the > spam job posting have been more spam-like than the original possible > spam posting. > > spamspamspamspamspamspamspameggsspam. > > Anyway, I also posted a job posting earlier today. Hope I did not break > the rules. I had no problem with your post. Later, Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGdyigHl0iXDssISsRAjjaAJ4hUy5DyPm+W+KMaIlIPZGWFgCWKQCeKB0N jLDlWHyrQIYtUo2Cz8+qMn8= =WdEA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Attached Message From: Keith Wright <kwright(a)keithdiane.us> To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Subject: Re: [Wlug] JOB - Senior Operations Engineer - Boston, MA Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:12:08 -0400 > From: "Tal Cohen" <wlug(a)cohen123.com> > > What are the guidelines for posting > a relevant job opening to this group? Don't be a lamer. I am tempted to leave it there. True Lamers will never know who they are, but here are some guides to How To Be A Lamer. 1. Never come to a meeting. 2. Subscribe to the list for the sole purpose of posting your advertisement. 3. Fail the Turing Test by using cliches to indicate that your message was auto-generated by a computer or marketing manager. 4. Do not write any introductory remarks that might show your message is intended for the WLUG list, rather than every list in known space. There are, of course, many other possible lame actions. Note that I have no actual power over any list messages other than my own, and so my opinions are worthless except in so far as others agree with them. -- Keith _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection.

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Recommendation for Project Management freeware?
by Stephen Daukas 21 Jun '07

21 Jun '07

Morning all! Before I download a few bazillian freeware apps to look at, I was wondering if anyone has experience with and a recommendation for a freeware alternative to MS Project? I would like both Gantt and PERT with critical path and milestones... This is primarily for keeping track of the flow and status of a bunch of projects (where are we, what comes next, what is holding up the works, etc.), and for tasks within a project. Drill down from a multiple project view (PERT) to a single project, to tasks with a project (Gantt) would be very cool, especially given senior management is visually oriented. ;-) Alternatives to "project management" apps based on the above are welcome (I'm not sure where the process automation/workflow tools business is these days, but if you have something you like, let me know...). Being able to generate web-based content would be brilliant! Then I could say "go to this URL and click away!" Thanks in advance! Steve

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Ubuntu switch user & screen lock
by Bill Mills-Curran 20 Jun '07

20 Jun '07

I'm running Ubuntu Feisty Fawn. I've recently used the "switch user" option to log in without logging my son out. However, after logging out of my account, the screen is locked for my son, and his login password will not unlock the screen. Anyone else seen this? TiA, Bill

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Re: [Wlug] Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters
by Jamie Guinan 19 Jun '07

19 Jun '07

My $0.02... I think the mailing list should be like the meetings - if someone at a meeting says "hey, $COMPANY has this opening doing Linux sysadmin/programming/etc.", great. But if some random recruiter walks into the room without any introductions and starts blabbing about jobs and how great his company is, I imagine they'd be told where to go. In any case (and to kick a dead horse from a few months ago), I think all job postings should be open to satire. If you're a recruiter and you post something that looks like an obvious death march[1], be prepared to have the euphemistic recruiter-speak appropriatly analyzed and made fun of. >:) -Jamie [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_march_(software_development)

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Discussion: Email list policy for recruiters
by Andy Stewart 19 Jun '07

19 Jun '07

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 HI gang, Tal Cohen wrote: > So, here is a question: What are the guidelines for > posting a relevant job > opening to this group? This is a very good question! In general, I personally frown upon random recruiters posting job openings on the WLUG mailing list, especially when they don't have the courtesy of asking permission. Having the list as writable only by list members helps to keep this type of email traffic minimized. However, there have been a couple of recruiters in the past who asked permission prior to posting, which I did grant (John Spencer is one such individual). I specifically asked John to preface his subject with "JOB" or "JOBS" so people could filter accordingly, and he has done what was asked. Also, John's posts have been very Linux relevant IMHO. In the interest of fair disclosure, I've worked with John in the past and my employer has hired people represented by him. I have also had recruiters send the job posting to me, asking me to forward it to the list. If relevant, I forward the post, but sometimes I have deleted them if I thought they were not relevant. Having said all of that, I recognize that this mailing list belongs to all of us and not just to me. At any time, we as a group can choose to change our policy. Admittedly, even if every recruiter who posted asked permission and used the "JOB" subject, the volume of email could become more than we'd like. To date, this has not happened. I have not yet heard anybody complain about a group member posting a relevant job opening for their employer. In today's particular case, I suspect that if the recruiter were informed of our policy, he would be happy to comply. Although it is our email list, how we react on the list is a reflection of the group as a whole. In summary, I propose the following for your consideration: a) Recruiters who wish to post to the WLUG mailing list need to request permission to do so, and if granted, preface the subject with "JOB" so people can filter accordingly. As acting president, I presume that the permission would be granted by me. b) Any recruiter who abuses the list by failing to ask permission prior to posting, or by an excessive volume of emails, will be asked to stop (including removal from the membership list if necessary). c) Group members may post relevant job openings as long as they preface the subject with "JOB". I invite constructive discussion on the proposal, and counter proposals if appropriate. Thanks, Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGdxy1Hl0iXDssISsRAuEzAJ9BjH5OEKb2KczS2uST4Y1F4p0VSACcDbNf SShrPI1odk0K9WH68GLiSBA= =jOVI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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