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Re: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invit es)

by Marc Hughes

Comparing it to a gmail account, it's the development time that's an issue. Google has spent a lot of time, and a lot of money getting a solution as good as gmail is. To date, I've never used a better email client whether web-based or not. Just whipping together free software will not give an equivilant solution. Comparing it to hotmail plus a gig of storage... sure, it's easy to beat that. -Marc On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:11:46 -0400, Keller, Tim <tim.keller(a)stratus.com> wrote: > I don't see where hosting would much of a problem at all. The trick is to > charge for it. WLUG members who wanted an account on the box would each pay > in a couple bucks a month and that money would be used to pay to host the > box. If somebody had a decent speakeasy type (allows servers, has decent > bandwidth) account, that money could be used to pay the electric bill for > the box(s), add capacity, etc. Then you host an webpage,distro > respository,irc channel, etc. off of it. > > Tim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Haines [mailto:chaines@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 10:04 AM > To: Worcester Linux Users Group > Subject: Re: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail > invit es) > > > I'd definitely be interested, but I agree, hosting would be the big issue. > > Chuck > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:03:27 -0400, Martin, Eric <martine(a)worc.k12.ma.us> > wrote: > > > > I like the idea, could be fun! However, I think hosting would be the > > biggest hump... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob George [mailto:mailings02@ttlexceeded.com] > > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:55 PM > > To: Worcester Linux Users Group > > Subject: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invites) > > > > Frank Sweetser wrote: > > > > >>[...] > > >>Is there a benefit to having a gmail account, other than the free > > >>space? > > > > > > Gmail actually is pretty neat. The whole archive and search vs > > > folders takes a little getting used to, but I think they implemented > > > it pretty nicely. It ends up giving you a very flexible view of your > > > email archives. > > > > > > Oh yeah, and it's about an order of magnitutde faster than any other > > > webmail service I've tried =) > > > > As a long time Linux enthusiast, I've never quite understood the thrill > > of having 1GB of my personal data stored on someone else's server, much > > less on one that is hosted by a company that -- while mostly playing > > nice now -- reserves the right to do whatever with that data later. > > > > I've also not understood why that would be any more attractive than the > > building of a (better, faster, bigger) server of my own, particularly > > given the wealth of tools available to us GPL. > > > > On the BLU list recently, there was much discussion about building a > > cluster, but plans stalled when the reality of power and HVAC were > > detailed. However, hosting a box or two somewhere didn't seem to be an > > issue. > > > > So... For the tech-minded but still willing to store personal stuff > > outside, wouldn't a secure, private (as in gpg) and shared Gmail > > alternative make a good LUG project? > > > > I know many folks are looking for ways to get experience doing > > real-world things, and enough of us probably are interested in specific > > aspects of this to be involved at varying levels. Others may have > > hardware available for dontation. > > > > So... > > 1.) Is there interest in something like this > > 2.) Where could it be housed/hosted and what would it cost? > > > > Advantages I see are: > > 1.) A cool LUG project. I haven't heard of anyone doing this, and it > > makes for a nice "Gmail? Hah!" response at techie gatherings. > > 2.) A good hands-on project for the curious (apache, webmail, gpg/pgp, > > spamassassin, system hardening, procmail, php/whatever, mysql, etc.) > > 3.) We can address Gmail shortcomings > > 4.) We can enhance security and privacy (gpg/pgp, encrypted data and > > other options come to mind) > > 5.) We can allow users more direct (and effective) spam control > > (spamassassin, milters come to mind -- allow each user more control!) > > 6.) We can allow POP/IMAP access to/from the server (secure SMTP?) > > 7.) A good place to store LUG files etc. (be good now) > > 8.) Cool WLUG domain names! > > > > Disadvantages abound of course: > > 1.) Time - Effort to get started, and over the hump > > 2.) Money - Hosting primarily > > 3.) Support - Who'll fix it > > 4.) Scalability - Will it be killed by success? How much room can be > > allocated per-user? How big of a box before it buckles? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wlug mailing list > > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > _______________________________________________ > > Wlug mailing list > > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > > > > -- > Chuck Haines > chaines(a)gmail.com > ------------------------------------------- > Tau Kappa Epsilon Fraternity > WPI Class of 2005 > ------------------------------------------- > AIM: CyberGrex > YIM: CyberGrex_27 > ICQ: 3707881 > ------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >

Sept. 17, 2004

Re: [Wlug] Recommended virtual private server (UML) hosting?

by Mike Frysinger

On Friday 17 September 2004 10:12 am, Bob George wrote: > I'm looking for an inexpensive vps hosting option (UML-based or similar) > that will allow me full control over server configuration. Are there any > that are recommended? i use bytemark (www.bytemark.co.uk) and they're pretty good ... had them for almost a year now ... -mike

Sept. 17, 2004

RE: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invit es)

by Keller, Tim

I don't see where hosting would much of a problem at all. The trick is to charge for it. WLUG members who wanted an account on the box would each pay in a couple bucks a month and that money would be used to pay to host the box. If somebody had a decent speakeasy type (allows servers, has decent bandwidth) account, that money could be used to pay the electric bill for the box(s), add capacity, etc. Then you host an webpage,distro respository,irc channel, etc. off of it. Tim. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Haines [mailto:chaines@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 10:04 AM To: Worcester Linux Users Group Subject: Re: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invit es) I'd definitely be interested, but I agree, hosting would be the big issue. Chuck On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:03:27 -0400, Martin, Eric <martine(a)worc.k12.ma.us> wrote: > I like the idea, could be fun! However, I think hosting would be the > biggest hump... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob George [mailto:mailings02@ttlexceeded.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:55 PM > To: Worcester Linux Users Group > Subject: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invites) > > Frank Sweetser wrote: > > >>[...] > >>Is there a benefit to having a gmail account, other than the free > >>space? > > > > Gmail actually is pretty neat. The whole archive and search vs > > folders takes a little getting used to, but I think they implemented > > it pretty nicely. It ends up giving you a very flexible view of your > > email archives. > > > > Oh yeah, and it's about an order of magnitutde faster than any other > > webmail service I've tried =) > > As a long time Linux enthusiast, I've never quite understood the thrill > of having 1GB of my personal data stored on someone else's server, much > less on one that is hosted by a company that -- while mostly playing > nice now -- reserves the right to do whatever with that data later. > > I've also not understood why that would be any more attractive than the > building of a (better, faster, bigger) server of my own, particularly > given the wealth of tools available to us GPL. > > On the BLU list recently, there was much discussion about building a > cluster, but plans stalled when the reality of power and HVAC were > detailed. However, hosting a box or two somewhere didn't seem to be an > issue. > > So... For the tech-minded but still willing to store personal stuff > outside, wouldn't a secure, private (as in gpg) and shared Gmail > alternative make a good LUG project? > > I know many folks are looking for ways to get experience doing > real-world things, and enough of us probably are interested in specific > aspects of this to be involved at varying levels. Others may have > hardware available for dontation. > > So... > 1.) Is there interest in something like this > 2.) Where could it be housed/hosted and what would it cost? > > Advantages I see are: > 1.) A cool LUG project. I haven't heard of anyone doing this, and it > makes for a nice "Gmail? Hah!" response at techie gatherings. > 2.) A good hands-on project for the curious (apache, webmail, gpg/pgp, > spamassassin, system hardening, procmail, php/whatever, mysql, etc.) > 3.) We can address Gmail shortcomings > 4.) We can enhance security and privacy (gpg/pgp, encrypted data and > other options come to mind) > 5.) We can allow users more direct (and effective) spam control > (spamassassin, milters come to mind -- allow each user more control!) > 6.) We can allow POP/IMAP access to/from the server (secure SMTP?) > 7.) A good place to store LUG files etc. (be good now) > 8.) Cool WLUG domain names! > > Disadvantages abound of course: > 1.) Time - Effort to get started, and over the hump > 2.) Money - Hosting primarily > 3.) Support - Who'll fix it > 4.) Scalability - Will it be killed by success? How much room can be > allocated per-user? How big of a box before it buckles? > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- Chuck Haines chaines(a)gmail.com ------------------------------------------- Tau Kappa Epsilon Fraternity WPI Class of 2005 ------------------------------------------- AIM: CyberGrex YIM: CyberGrex_27 ICQ: 3707881 ------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

Sept. 17, 2004

Re: [Wlug] Local service/repair recommendations

by Jeff Kinz

On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 08:55:23PM -0400, Brett Russ wrote: > Jeff Kinz wrote: > > > Do the power supply fans spin? > > I assume not, since he says above "nothing happens" :-) Over the years I have found that some values for "nothing happens" do NOT approach zero. It all depends on what "Nothing happens" means to the person who is using the term. I've been burn on it enough times, that I don't make the assumption that they really mean "Nothing happens" anymore... ;-) Instead - I use very specific questions in a stepwise fashion to determine what they are really seeing. Its the only way to keep your sanity intact when doing a remote diagnostic. This neccesarily means that some information will get repeated. -- Linux/Open Source. Now all your base belongs to you, for free. ============================================================ Idealism: "Realism applied over a longer time period" Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.

Sept. 17, 2004

Re: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invit es)

by Jeff Moyer

==> Regarding Re: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invit es); Chuck Haines <chaines(a)gmail.com> adds: chaines> I'd definitely be interested, but I agree, hosting would be the chaines> big issue. Chuck I don't see hosting as the big issue. You can get a lot of the development done without any hosting at all. Once the software infrastructure is in place, I'm sure people (such as myself) would be happy to donate systems. Show me the prototype, and I'll arrange for a machine to host the beta. If anyone cared to donate a second machine, I could even setup a failover cluster for you. So, who's taking the first crack at the design goals? -Jeff chaines> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:03:27 -0400, Martin, Eric chaines> <martine(a)worc.k12.ma.us> wrote: >> I like the idea, could be fun! However, I think hosting would be the >> biggest hump... >> >> -----Original Message----- From> Bob George [mailto:mailings02@ttlexceeded.com] Sent> Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:55 PM To> Worcester Linux Users Group Subject> [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invites) >> Frank Sweetser wrote: >> >> >>[...] >>Is there a benefit to having a gmail account, other than the >> free >>space? >> > >> > Gmail actually is pretty neat. The whole archive and search vs > >> folders takes a little getting used to, but I think they implemented > >> it pretty nicely. It ends up giving you a very flexible view of your > >> email archives. >> > >> > Oh yeah, and it's about an order of magnitutde faster than any other > >> webmail service I've tried =) >> >> As a long time Linux enthusiast, I've never quite understood the thrill >> of having 1GB of my personal data stored on someone else's server, much >> less on one that is hosted by a company that -- while mostly playing >> nice now -- reserves the right to do whatever with that data later. >> >> I've also not understood why that would be any more attractive than the >> building of a (better, faster, bigger) server of my own, particularly >> given the wealth of tools available to us GPL. >> >> On the BLU list recently, there was much discussion about building a >> cluster, but plans stalled when the reality of power and HVAC were >> detailed. However, hosting a box or two somewhere didn't seem to be an >> issue. >> >> So... For the tech-minded but still willing to store personal stuff >> outside, wouldn't a secure, private (as in gpg) and shared Gmail >> alternative make a good LUG project? >> >> I know many folks are looking for ways to get experience doing >> real-world things, and enough of us probably are interested in specific >> aspects of this to be involved at varying levels. Others may have >> hardware available for dontation. >> >> So... 1.) Is there interest in something like this 2.) Where could it >> be housed/hosted and what would it cost? >> >> Advantages I see are: 1.) A cool LUG project. I haven't heard of anyone >> doing this, and it makes for a nice "Gmail? Hah!" response at techie >> gatherings. 2.) A good hands-on project for the curious (apache, >> webmail, gpg/pgp, spamassassin, system hardening, procmail, >> php/whatever, mysql, etc.) 3.) We can address Gmail shortcomings 4.) We >> can enhance security and privacy (gpg/pgp, encrypted data and other >> options come to mind) 5.) We can allow users more direct (and effective) >> spam control (spamassassin, milters come to mind -- allow each user more >> control!) 6.) We can allow POP/IMAP access to/from the server (secure >> SMTP?) 7.) A good place to store LUG files etc. (be good now) 8.) Cool >> WLUG domain names! >> >> Disadvantages abound of course: 1.) Time - Effort to get started, and >> over the hump 2.) Money - Hosting primarily 3.) Support - Who'll fix it >> 4.) Scalability - Will it be killed by success? How much room can be >> allocated per-user? How big of a box before it buckles? >> >> _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list >> Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http> //mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >> _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list >> Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http> //mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >> chaines> -- Chuck Haines chaines(a)gmail.com chaines> ------------------------------------------- Tau Kappa Epsilon chaines> Fraternity WPI Class of 2005 chaines> ------------------------------------------- AIM> CyberGrex YIM> CyberGrex_27 ICQ> 3707881 chaines> ------------------------------------------- chaines> _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list chaines> Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http> //mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

Sept. 17, 2004

Recommended virtual private server (UML) hosting?

by Bob George

I'm looking for an inexpensive vps hosting option (UML-based or similar) that will allow me full control over server configuration. Are there any that are recommended? Thanks, - Bob

Sept. 17, 2004

Re: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invit es)

by Chuck Haines

I'd definitely be interested, but I agree, hosting would be the big issue. Chuck On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:03:27 -0400, Martin, Eric <martine(a)worc.k12.ma.us> wrote: > I like the idea, could be fun! However, I think hosting would be the > biggest hump... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob George [mailto:mailings02@ttlexceeded.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:55 PM > To: Worcester Linux Users Group > Subject: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invites) > > Frank Sweetser wrote: > > >>[...] > >>Is there a benefit to having a gmail account, other than the free > >>space? > > > > Gmail actually is pretty neat. The whole archive and search vs > > folders takes a little getting used to, but I think they implemented > > it pretty nicely. It ends up giving you a very flexible view of your > > email archives. > > > > Oh yeah, and it's about an order of magnitutde faster than any other > > webmail service I've tried =) > > As a long time Linux enthusiast, I've never quite understood the thrill > of having 1GB of my personal data stored on someone else's server, much > less on one that is hosted by a company that -- while mostly playing > nice now -- reserves the right to do whatever with that data later. > > I've also not understood why that would be any more attractive than the > building of a (better, faster, bigger) server of my own, particularly > given the wealth of tools available to us GPL. > > On the BLU list recently, there was much discussion about building a > cluster, but plans stalled when the reality of power and HVAC were > detailed. However, hosting a box or two somewhere didn't seem to be an > issue. > > So... For the tech-minded but still willing to store personal stuff > outside, wouldn't a secure, private (as in gpg) and shared Gmail > alternative make a good LUG project? > > I know many folks are looking for ways to get experience doing > real-world things, and enough of us probably are interested in specific > aspects of this to be involved at varying levels. Others may have > hardware available for dontation. > > So... > 1.) Is there interest in something like this > 2.) Where could it be housed/hosted and what would it cost? > > Advantages I see are: > 1.) A cool LUG project. I haven't heard of anyone doing this, and it > makes for a nice "Gmail? Hah!" response at techie gatherings. > 2.) A good hands-on project for the curious (apache, webmail, gpg/pgp, > spamassassin, system hardening, procmail, php/whatever, mysql, etc.) > 3.) We can address Gmail shortcomings > 4.) We can enhance security and privacy (gpg/pgp, encrypted data and > other options come to mind) > 5.) We can allow users more direct (and effective) spam control > (spamassassin, milters come to mind -- allow each user more control!) > 6.) We can allow POP/IMAP access to/from the server (secure SMTP?) > 7.) A good place to store LUG files etc. (be good now) > 8.) Cool WLUG domain names! > > Disadvantages abound of course: > 1.) Time - Effort to get started, and over the hump > 2.) Money - Hosting primarily > 3.) Support - Who'll fix it > 4.) Scalability - Will it be killed by success? How much room can be > allocated per-user? How big of a box before it buckles? > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- Chuck Haines chaines(a)gmail.com ------------------------------------------- Tau Kappa Epsilon Fraternity WPI Class of 2005 ------------------------------------------- AIM: CyberGrex YIM: CyberGrex_27 ICQ: 3707881 -------------------------------------------

Sept. 17, 2004

Re: [Wlug] Local service/repair recommendations

by Robert L Krawitz

From: "Martin, Eric" <MartinE(a)worc.k12.ma.us> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:04:50 -0400 Had the same problem. I needed a 450W power supply. The video card is wicked intensive. I built a machine with similar specs...Try a PCI video card and it should work fine There are lots of different power supplies out there; last time I saw a review some are much better than others. Antec ones are supposed to be very good (I have one). That said, my previous system had power-on stability issues (when the system was powered on, it frequently wouldn't boot, and would usually take multiple boots to recognize everything). It originally had a cheap 300W supply, which I replaced with an Antec 400'ish supply (don't remember which one) to try to cure it. It didn't work. -----Original Message----- From: track(a)trackspace.com [mailto:track@trackspace.com] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:30 PM To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Subject: Re: [Wlug] Local service/repair recommendations In case it matters, the mobo is an Abit NF7 with a single DIMM of 512MB RAM (Crucial), an AMD Athlon 2400+ processor, an ATI Radeon 9600XT video card and it's powered by a 400W power supply. I bought all the parts from New Egg about 7 months ago, put it together and haven't had a single problem save for this.

Sept. 17, 2004

RE: [Wlug] Local service/repair recommendations

by Martin, Eric

Had the same problem. I needed a 450W power supply. The video card is wicked intensive. I built a machine with similar specs...Try a PCI video card and it should work fine -----Original Message----- From: track(a)trackspace.com [mailto:track@trackspace.com] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:30 PM To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Subject: Re: [Wlug] Local service/repair recommendations Thank you for all that responded. I'll try to summarize the answers to all the follow-up questions in one reply. When I turn the power on, nothing happens except a red LED on the motherboard lights up. The CPU fan doesn't spin, the computer doesn't beep - nothing (so no beeps or POST codes). The weird thing is that when I turn the power switch off, the LED stays lit for another 5-6 seconds. I'm not sure if that means anything though... In case it matters, the mobo is an Abit NF7 with a single DIMM of 512MB RAM (Crucial), an AMD Athlon 2400+ processor, an ATI Radeon 9600XT video card and it's powered by a 400W power supply. I bought all the parts from New Egg about 7 months ago, put it together and haven't had a single problem save for this. I've tried running it bare bones and moving the DIMM into a different slot. I have a spare computer, but the connector from the power supply doesn't seem to have the same plug as the one on my board. I don't have any extra RAM or a processor to try swapping things out with unfortunately. I've tried Googling the symptoms and the red LED on the mobo to no avail. It seems the only mention of the red LED problem was answered with the typical "check your connections, the mobo's fried, etc..." - no real diagnostics. I stopped in at a computer shop on 122A in Holden this afternoon and was quoted a $35 "bench fee" for taking a look at it and $75/hr to do any work. Like I said before, all the parts are still under warranty through New Egg and I'd happily send them back but I need to figure out what's not working. And I realize this is a Linux list and this is kind of off-topic. That being said, you folks are pretty bright and knowledgable so I figured I'd throw this out there. I do appreciate all the suggestions/comments so far. Thanks, Track _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

Sept. 17, 2004

RE: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invit es)

by Martin, Eric

I like the idea, could be fun! However, I think hosting would be the biggest hump... -----Original Message----- From: Bob George [mailto:mailings02@ttlexceeded.com] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:55 PM To: Worcester Linux Users Group Subject: [Wlug] For discussion: A Worthy LUG project? (was gmail invites) Frank Sweetser wrote: >>[...] >>Is there a benefit to having a gmail account, other than the free >>space? > > Gmail actually is pretty neat. The whole archive and search vs > folders takes a little getting used to, but I think they implemented > it pretty nicely. It ends up giving you a very flexible view of your > email archives. > > Oh yeah, and it's about an order of magnitutde faster than any other > webmail service I've tried =) As a long time Linux enthusiast, I've never quite understood the thrill of having 1GB of my personal data stored on someone else's server, much less on one that is hosted by a company that -- while mostly playing nice now -- reserves the right to do whatever with that data later. I've also not understood why that would be any more attractive than the building of a (better, faster, bigger) server of my own, particularly given the wealth of tools available to us GPL. On the BLU list recently, there was much discussion about building a cluster, but plans stalled when the reality of power and HVAC were detailed. However, hosting a box or two somewhere didn't seem to be an issue. So... For the tech-minded but still willing to store personal stuff outside, wouldn't a secure, private (as in gpg) and shared Gmail alternative make a good LUG project? I know many folks are looking for ways to get experience doing real-world things, and enough of us probably are interested in specific aspects of this to be involved at varying levels. Others may have hardware available for dontation. So... 1.) Is there interest in something like this 2.) Where could it be housed/hosted and what would it cost? Advantages I see are: 1.) A cool LUG project. I haven't heard of anyone doing this, and it makes for a nice "Gmail? Hah!" response at techie gatherings. 2.) A good hands-on project for the curious (apache, webmail, gpg/pgp, spamassassin, system hardening, procmail, php/whatever, mysql, etc.) 3.) We can address Gmail shortcomings 4.) We can enhance security and privacy (gpg/pgp, encrypted data and other options come to mind) 5.) We can allow users more direct (and effective) spam control (spamassassin, milters come to mind -- allow each user more control!) 6.) We can allow POP/IMAP access to/from the server (secure SMTP?) 7.) A good place to store LUG files etc. (be good now) 8.) Cool WLUG domain names! Disadvantages abound of course: 1.) Time - Effort to get started, and over the hump 2.) Money - Hosting primarily 3.) Support - Who'll fix it 4.) Scalability - Will it be killed by success? How much room can be allocated per-user? How big of a box before it buckles? _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

Sept. 17, 2004