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Re: [Wlug] Best 802.11abgn router?

by Adam Gomes

I live in the middle of the woods, and I generally discourage the use of things like bluetooth at my house. So, 2.4Ghz works ok for me. But if you actually have neighbors, and own / use a microwave oven, and use bluetooth gadgetry, and any other number of things that can / do emit into the 2.4Ghz spectrum, I have to agree with Frank. Put your 11n traffic into the 5Ghz space, and leave everyone else in the 2.4Ghz space. 2.4Ghz is noisy and crowded and just not a lot of fun. I have a long list of funny / disheartening storries about 2.4Ghz and wifi at a number of my employer's locations .... Frank, good point too about the channel width. And 802.11ac puts 80 and 160 Mhz channels on the horizon .. but ... who gives a hoot, when (if you choose to play nice with others) you still have to honor those neighbors of your using the 20Mhz channel width? Ugh, wireless can be such a head ache. Dude, John, just run some cables. --Adam On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Chuck Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 11:34:34AM -0400, Frank Sweetser wrote: > > On 10/13/2010 11:23 AM, John Stoffel wrote: > > > > > My only worry is that all my core network is in the basement, but I > > > have my current WAP upstairs in a central-ish location. And my wife's > > > wireless is upstairs too... But replacing my WRAP board with something > > > with more ports which I can break out more would be good > > > to... decisions, decisions... > > > > > > Can you put different antennas on the netgear? > > > > Not on this particular model, no. Sadly, there aren't very many external > 11n > > antenna options on the market yet. That said, 11n does have a little > better > > penetration than a/b/g, so it may work out for you anyway. I have mine > in my > > basement, and it works quite well in my 2nd floor bedroom. > > > > > Thanks for all the feedback, now I'm leaning Netgear... :] > > Many of the new Netgears actually run a modified OpenWRT from the > factory (the older 7.x version from what I can tell on my WNDR3700). > > A nice 2.4-only 3x3 AP with external antenna connectors is the TP-Link > TL-1043ND. It also runs OpenWRT from the factory. Sadly, this one > isn't reviewed on smallnetbuilder.com. > > Another forum with router/wireless hacking info on it: > > http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/ > > http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/9?g=3 > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >

Oct. 13, 2010

Re: [Wlug] Best 802.11abgn router?

by Chuck Anderson

On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 11:34:34AM -0400, Frank Sweetser wrote: > On 10/13/2010 11:23 AM, John Stoffel wrote: > > > My only worry is that all my core network is in the basement, but I > > have my current WAP upstairs in a central-ish location. And my wife's > > wireless is upstairs too... But replacing my WRAP board with something > > with more ports which I can break out more would be good > > to... decisions, decisions... > > > > Can you put different antennas on the netgear? > > Not on this particular model, no. Sadly, there aren't very many external 11n > antenna options on the market yet. That said, 11n does have a little better > penetration than a/b/g, so it may work out for you anyway. I have mine in my > basement, and it works quite well in my 2nd floor bedroom. > > > Thanks for all the feedback, now I'm leaning Netgear... :] Many of the new Netgears actually run a modified OpenWRT from the factory (the older 7.x version from what I can tell on my WNDR3700). A nice 2.4-only 3x3 AP with external antenna connectors is the TP-Link TL-1043ND. It also runs OpenWRT from the factory. Sadly, this one isn't reviewed on smallnetbuilder.com. Another forum with router/wireless hacking info on it: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/ http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/9?g=3

Oct. 13, 2010

Re: [Wlug] Best 802.11abgn router?

by Frank Sweetser

On 10/13/2010 11:23 AM, John Stoffel wrote: > My only worry is that all my core network is in the basement, but I > have my current WAP upstairs in a central-ish location. And my wife's > wireless is upstairs too... But replacing my WRAP board with something > with more ports which I can break out more would be good > to... decisions, decisions... > > Can you put different antennas on the netgear? Not on this particular model, no. Sadly, there aren't very many external 11n antenna options on the market yet. That said, 11n does have a little better penetration than a/b/g, so it may work out for you anyway. I have mine in my basement, and it works quite well in my 2nd floor bedroom. > Thanks for all the feedback, now I'm leaning Netgear... :] -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu | For every problem, there is a solution that WPI Senior Network Engineer | is simple, elegant, and wrong. - HL Mencken GPG fingerprint = 6174 1257 129E 0D21 D8D4 E8A3 8E39 29E3 E2E8 8CEC

Oct. 13, 2010

Re: [Wlug] Best 802.11abgn router?

by Frank Sweetser

On 10/13/2010 11:04 AM, Adam Gomes wrote: > Are there really any affordable consumer grade wireless adapters that have the > capability of four spatial streams? I ask because if there aren't then paying Doubtful, on both the AP and client end. Even the high grade commercial stuff that we're deploying on campus doesn't come higher than 3x3. A quick google search shows that 4x4 chipsets are just now being bragged about by Marvell, which means that they're not going to be widespread in on the shelf products for probably another year or so. > the premium for "600N" maybe be a waste. I know that Intel started selling 600N is nothing more than a marketing label these days. For example, on the 3700, the "600" number was from adding up 300 on 2.4 plus 300 on 5. Not technically wrong, but... well, marketing. 99% of what you're buying out there is going to be 2x2, which maxes out at an on-paper speed of 300Mbit, or about 160Mbit of real work useful throughput. > relatively affordable 3x3:3 cards, but that's still going to cap-out at 450MB > for MAC/PHY layer speeds. To me, what's more important is having simultaneous > access to both bands (2.4Ghz, and 5.1Ghz) so I can avoid interference when > possible. Anything over a single 150MB spatial stream at that point is just > gravy. Especially since most of my network at home is still 10/100, and most > of my larger data transfers are over the Internet ... so well, no ISP around > me offers speed in excess of 100MB sustained. :) You should also be aware that there are other variables that factor into the speed, including inter frame spacing and channel width (20MHz vs 40MHz), and the RF environment. Traditional wireless with a single spatial stream (11a/b/g) requires a good, strong single signal between the endpoints. 11n, on the other hand, supports MIMO. Basically it sends out multiple streams on the same channel (up to four in the specs) and then depends on having the different streams bounce around slightly differently. For example, stream A may be strongest on the direct path, while stream B may be a little stronger bouncing off a nearby fridge. MIMO then performs dark magic to use these different properties to split the streams back out, allowing them to carry different data. If you don't have a good diverse RF environment, it's quite possible that your 4x4 degrades down to an effect 2x2. With 11n, sitting 10 feet away from the AP in a big empty nothing is not going be near best case performance. > Well, there's that, and since a number of devices in my house are still > 802.11b/g only devices (e.g. my Wii), and there are just so many of these wifi > enabled devices, I don't expect to get close to the top end throughput rates > on these newer 'n' capable APs anyway. That is to say, while operating in the > 2.4Ghz space, I'm still going to have to wait for my 54MB devices to send > their frames before I get the chance to transmit my frames at 150 - 600MB. > Just having that second 5Ghz band and singel spatial stream is good enough, I > think. Make sense? Just having legacy clients associated at all will absolutely drag your throughput down. You're best off trying to keep the legacy clients on 2.4, and focus on putting new 11n stuff on 5, to keep it operating in pure 11n mode. At that point, a typical 2x2 device should give you plenty of performance. -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu | For every problem, there is a solution that WPI Senior Network Engineer | is simple, elegant, and wrong. - HL Mencken GPG fingerprint = 6174 1257 129E 0D21 D8D4 E8A3 8E39 29E3 E2E8 8CEC

Oct. 13, 2010

Re: [Wlug] Best 802.11abgn router?

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Frank" == Frank Sweetser <fs(a)WPI.EDU> writes: Frank> On 10/13/2010 10:48 AM, John Stoffel wrote: >>>>>>> "Frank" == Frank Sweetser <fs(a)WPI.EDU> writes: >> Frank> On 10/13/2010 10:26 AM, John Stoffel wrote: >>>> >>>> Guys, >>>> >>>> I'm looking to replace my WAP54G (802.11bg) wireless access point. I >>>> really need to get more speed to the wife's computer, and I don't want >>>> to run wires. >>>> >>>> I'm thinking I'd like to get something that DD-WRT can run on, and >>>> possibly something with dual radios and/or dual 2.4ghz and 5.0ghz >>>> band, so I can have a secured network, and an open, slower network for >>>> guests. >>>> >>>> My home network looks like this: >>>> >>>> cable modem <---> router <----> GigE Lan switch <-- clients >>>> | >>>> | >>>> WAP54G >> Frank> Congratulations, you're me a month ago =) >> >> Heh, so where do you end up putting your new wireless router in your >> network? Did you replace the core router, or add on? Yeah I'm a >> professional SysAdmin, but I don't do the network side day to >> day... so I want to stay secure. Probably way too paranoid, but >> that's me. Frank> I threw out everything else and I'm just using the netgear for Frank> everything. I didn't bother to set it up, but openwrt does Frank> support setting up a second guest wireless network if you want Frank> to segment guests off from your own machines. My only worry is that all my core network is in the basement, but I have my current WAP upstairs in a central-ish location. And my wife's wireless is upstairs too... But replacing my WRAP board with something with more ports which I can break out more would be good to... decisions, decisions... Can you put different antennas on the netgear? Thanks for all the feedback, now I'm leaning Netgear... :]

Oct. 13, 2010

Re: [Wlug] Best 802.11abgn router?

by Adam Gomes

Are there really any affordable consumer grade wireless adapters that have the capability of four spatial streams? I ask because if there aren't then paying the premium for "600N" maybe be a waste. I know that Intel started selling relatively affordable 3x3:3 cards, but that's still going to cap-out at 450MB for MAC/PHY layer speeds. To me, what's more important is having simultaneous access to both bands (2.4Ghz, and 5.1Ghz) so I can avoid interference when possible. Anything over a single 150MB spatial stream at that point is just gravy. Especially since most of my network at home is still 10/100, and most of my larger data transfers are over the Internet ... so well, no ISP around me offers speed in excess of 100MB sustained. :) Well, there's that, and since a number of devices in my house are still 802.11b/g only devices (e.g. my Wii), and there are just so many of these wifi enabled devices, I don't expect to get close to the top end throughput rates on these newer 'n' capable APs anyway. That is to say, while operating in the 2.4Ghz space, I'm still going to have to wait for my 54MB devices to send their frames before I get the chance to transmit my frames at 150 - 600MB. Just having that second 5Ghz band and singel spatial stream is good enough, I think. Make sense? On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Frank Sweetser <fs(a)wpi.edu> wrote: > On 10/13/2010 10:48 AM, John Stoffel wrote: > >>>>>> "Frank" == Frank Sweetser <fs(a)WPI.EDU> writes: > > > > Frank> On 10/13/2010 10:26 AM, John Stoffel wrote: > >>> > >>> Guys, > >>> > >>> I'm looking to replace my WAP54G (802.11bg) wireless access point. I > >>> really need to get more speed to the wife's computer, and I don't want > >>> to run wires. > >>> > >>> I'm thinking I'd like to get something that DD-WRT can run on, and > >>> possibly something with dual radios and/or dual 2.4ghz and 5.0ghz > >>> band, so I can have a secured network, and an open, slower network for > >>> guests. > >>> > >>> My home network looks like this: > >>> > >>> cable modem <---> router <----> GigE Lan switch <-- clients > >>> | > >>> | > >>> WAP54G > > > > Frank> Congratulations, you're me a month ago =) > > > > Heh, so where do you end up putting your new wireless router in your > > network? Did you replace the core router, or add on? Yeah I'm a > > professional SysAdmin, but I don't do the network side day to > > day... so I want to stay secure. Probably way too paranoid, but > > that's me. > > I threw out everything else and I'm just using the netgear for everything. > I > didn't bother to set it up, but openwrt does support setting up a second > guest > wireless network if you want to segment guests off from your own machines. > > > > Frank> The only glitch there is that it's a little more strict about > > Frank> wireless security behaviour, so some non-compliant devices > > Frank> (droid1 phones running android 2.2, in my case) can't associate > > Frank> at WPA2/AES. > > > > Bummers. :] That's why I figure I'll keep around my old WAP54G for > > wep devices and stuff that I don't care about much. > > I was able to get them running by limiting encryption down to WPA/TKIP. Of > course, AES is required for 11n speeds, so I'll be mucking around with this > more when either the phones or the router has a new update available =) > > > Frank> I've heard very good things about the buffalo devices, > > Frank> especially since they ship with dd-wrt from the factory. They > > Frank> don't have the same performance (again, smallnetbuilder has > > Frank> excellent benchmarks for side by side comparisons), but are a > > Frank> lot cheaper. One drawback of that particular model at least is > > Frank> that it's single band, 2.4GHz only. Personally I strongly > > Frank> recommend going with a dual band device, as 2.4 these days > > Frank> tends to be a pea soup of interference, while the 5GHz bands > > Frank> that 11a uses has a lot more open channels available. > > > > Yeah, I think I really want dual band, dual radio, gigabit. Going to > > have to pay for it though. But if the device lasts, I'm not too > > upset. > > Yeah, that's exactly why I opted to pony up for the netgear (about $150) > instead of the cheaper buffalo. > > -- > Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu | For every problem, there is a solution > that > WPI Senior Network Engineer | is simple, elegant, and wrong. - HL > Mencken > GPG fingerprint = 6174 1257 129E 0D21 D8D4 E8A3 8E39 29E3 E2E8 8CEC > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >

Oct. 13, 2010

Re: [Wlug] Best 802.11abgn router?

by Frank Sweetser

On 10/13/2010 10:48 AM, John Stoffel wrote: >>>>>> "Frank" == Frank Sweetser <fs(a)WPI.EDU> writes: > > Frank> On 10/13/2010 10:26 AM, John Stoffel wrote: >>> >>> Guys, >>> >>> I'm looking to replace my WAP54G (802.11bg) wireless access point. I >>> really need to get more speed to the wife's computer, and I don't want >>> to run wires. >>> >>> I'm thinking I'd like to get something that DD-WRT can run on, and >>> possibly something with dual radios and/or dual 2.4ghz and 5.0ghz >>> band, so I can have a secured network, and an open, slower network for >>> guests. >>> >>> My home network looks like this: >>> >>> cable modem <---> router <----> GigE Lan switch <-- clients >>> | >>> | >>> WAP54G > > Frank> Congratulations, you're me a month ago =) > > Heh, so where do you end up putting your new wireless router in your > network? Did you replace the core router, or add on? Yeah I'm a > professional SysAdmin, but I don't do the network side day to > day... so I want to stay secure. Probably way too paranoid, but > that's me. I threw out everything else and I'm just using the netgear for everything. I didn't bother to set it up, but openwrt does support setting up a second guest wireless network if you want to segment guests off from your own machines. > Frank> The only glitch there is that it's a little more strict about > Frank> wireless security behaviour, so some non-compliant devices > Frank> (droid1 phones running android 2.2, in my case) can't associate > Frank> at WPA2/AES. > > Bummers. :] That's why I figure I'll keep around my old WAP54G for > wep devices and stuff that I don't care about much. I was able to get them running by limiting encryption down to WPA/TKIP. Of course, AES is required for 11n speeds, so I'll be mucking around with this more when either the phones or the router has a new update available =) > Frank> I've heard very good things about the buffalo devices, > Frank> especially since they ship with dd-wrt from the factory. They > Frank> don't have the same performance (again, smallnetbuilder has > Frank> excellent benchmarks for side by side comparisons), but are a > Frank> lot cheaper. One drawback of that particular model at least is > Frank> that it's single band, 2.4GHz only. Personally I strongly > Frank> recommend going with a dual band device, as 2.4 these days > Frank> tends to be a pea soup of interference, while the 5GHz bands > Frank> that 11a uses has a lot more open channels available. > > Yeah, I think I really want dual band, dual radio, gigabit. Going to > have to pay for it though. But if the device lasts, I'm not too > upset. Yeah, that's exactly why I opted to pony up for the netgear (about $150) instead of the cheaper buffalo. -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu | For every problem, there is a solution that WPI Senior Network Engineer | is simple, elegant, and wrong. - HL Mencken GPG fingerprint = 6174 1257 129E 0D21 D8D4 E8A3 8E39 29E3 E2E8 8CEC

Oct. 13, 2010

Re: [Wlug] Best 802.11abgn router?

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Frank" == Frank Sweetser <fs(a)WPI.EDU> writes: Frank> On 10/13/2010 10:26 AM, John Stoffel wrote: >> >> Guys, >> >> I'm looking to replace my WAP54G (802.11bg) wireless access point. I >> really need to get more speed to the wife's computer, and I don't want >> to run wires. >> >> I'm thinking I'd like to get something that DD-WRT can run on, and >> possibly something with dual radios and/or dual 2.4ghz and 5.0ghz >> band, so I can have a secured network, and an open, slower network for >> guests. >> >> My home network looks like this: >> >> cable modem <---> router <----> GigE Lan switch <-- clients >> | >> | >> WAP54G Frank> Congratulations, you're me a month ago =) Heh, so where do you end up putting your new wireless router in your network? Did you replace the core router, or add on? Yeah I'm a professional SysAdmin, but I don't do the network side day to day... so I want to stay secure. Probably way too paranoid, but that's me. Frank> I got pointed at http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/ as a resource Frank> for comparing these devices. I ended up going with the Netgear Frank> WNDR3700, and have been very happy - ridiculous performance Frank> gains, including better internet performance. Nice. Frank> I do have to warn you that I tried dd-wrt on it, and it didn't Frank> work so great. It was a little flaky, and when I tried to Frank> upgrade it to a newer build, I semi-bricked it. (Luckily Frank> these boxes, when bricked, come up in a recovery mode where Frank> you can easily feed it a new image via TFTP, so bringing it Frank> back from the dead was trivial.) Instead I threw openwrt on Frank> it, with dnsmasq, dyndns, and openvpn configured, and it's Frank> been rock solid and blazingly fast. Interesting. I've been reading Newegg reviews and it's been interesting hearing that for some stuff openwrt is better than dd-wrt. Frank> The only glitch there is that it's a little more strict about Frank> wireless security behaviour, so some non-compliant devices Frank> (droid1 phones running android 2.2, in my case) can't associate Frank> at WPA2/AES. Bummers. :] That's why I figure I'll keep around my old WAP54G for wep devices and stuff that I don't care about much. Frank> I've heard very good things about the buffalo devices, Frank> especially since they ship with dd-wrt from the factory. They Frank> don't have the same performance (again, smallnetbuilder has Frank> excellent benchmarks for side by side comparisons), but are a Frank> lot cheaper. One drawback of that particular model at least is Frank> that it's single band, 2.4GHz only. Personally I strongly Frank> recommend going with a dual band device, as 2.4 these days Frank> tends to be a pea soup of interference, while the 5GHz bands Frank> that 11a uses has a lot more open channels available. Yeah, I think I really want dual band, dual radio, gigabit. Going to have to pay for it though. But if the device lasts, I'm not too upset. Frank> Chuck and I had talked about putting together some slides on Frank> openwrt, guess this means I should get started now... Go go go!

Oct. 13, 2010

Re: [Wlug] Best 802.11abgn router?

by Frank Sweetser

On 10/13/2010 10:26 AM, John Stoffel wrote: > > Guys, > > I'm looking to replace my WAP54G (802.11bg) wireless access point. I > really need to get more speed to the wife's computer, and I don't want > to run wires. > > I'm thinking I'd like to get something that DD-WRT can run on, and > possibly something with dual radios and/or dual 2.4ghz and 5.0ghz > band, so I can have a secured network, and an open, slower network for > guests. > > My home network looks like this: > > cable modem <---> router <----> GigE Lan switch <-- clients > | > | > WAP54G Congratulations, you're me a month ago =) > Unfortunately, my router is only 100mb/s on each port, which is fine > for WAN access, and most wireless, but not any more. And I don't want > to replace it since it's a WRAP board from PC-engines running m0n0wall > and doing a *great* job for what I need. Silent, no moving parts, > easy to manage. > > Mostly, I want a fast, secure wireless WPA2 home wireless network. > Maybe I'd keep the WAP54G around for public access... or maybe it's > time to bite the bullet and replace my WRAP board with something > better? > > I'm looking at the following: > > Netgear WNDR3700 > Linksys E2000 > Linksys WRT610N > ASUS RT-N16 > BUFFALO WZR-HP-G300NH (native DD-WRT support from factory!) I got pointed at http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/ as a resource for comparing these devices. I ended up going with the Netgear WNDR3700, and have been very happy - ridiculous performance gains, including better internet performance. I do have to warn you that I tried dd-wrt on it, and it didn't work so great. It was a little flaky, and when I tried to upgrade it to a newer build, I semi-bricked it. (Luckily these boxes, when bricked, come up in a recovery mode where you can easily feed it a new image via TFTP, so bringing it back from the dead was trivial.) Instead I threw openwrt on it, with dnsmasq, dyndns, and openvpn configured, and it's been rock solid and blazingly fast. The only glitch there is that it's a little more strict about wireless security behaviour, so some non-compliant devices (droid1 phones running android 2.2, in my case) can't associate at WPA2/AES. I've heard very good things about the buffalo devices, especially since they ship with dd-wrt from the factory. They don't have the same performance (again, smallnetbuilder has excellent benchmarks for side by side comparisons), but are a lot cheaper. One drawback of that particular model at least is that it's single band, 2.4GHz only. Personally I strongly recommend going with a dual band device, as 2.4 these days tends to be a pea soup of interference, while the 5GHz bands that 11a uses has a lot more open channels available. Chuck and I had talked about putting together some slides on openwrt, guess this means I should get started now... -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu | For every problem, there is a solution that WPI Senior Network Engineer | is simple, elegant, and wrong. - HL Mencken GPG fingerprint = 6174 1257 129E 0D21 D8D4 E8A3 8E39 29E3 E2E8 8CEC

Oct. 13, 2010

Best 802.11abgn router?

by John Stoffel

Guys, I'm looking to replace my WAP54G (802.11bg) wireless access point. I really need to get more speed to the wife's computer, and I don't want to run wires. I'm thinking I'd like to get something that DD-WRT can run on, and possibly something with dual radios and/or dual 2.4ghz and 5.0ghz band, so I can have a secured network, and an open, slower network for guests. My home network looks like this: cable modem <---> router <----> GigE Lan switch <-- clients | | WAP54G Unfortunately, my router is only 100mb/s on each port, which is fine for WAN access, and most wireless, but not any more. And I don't want to replace it since it's a WRAP board from PC-engines running m0n0wall and doing a *great* job for what I need. Silent, no moving parts, easy to manage. Mostly, I want a fast, secure wireless WPA2 home wireless network. Maybe I'd keep the WAP54G around for public access... or maybe it's time to bite the bullet and replace my WRAP board with something better? I'm looking at the following: Netgear WNDR3700 Linksys E2000 Linksys WRT610N ASUS RT-N16 BUFFALO WZR-HP-G300NH (native DD-WRT support from factory!) Any hints or suggestions or feedback? Thanks, John

Oct. 13, 2010