- WLUG - wlug.mailman3.com

Re: [Wlug] Good Beginners Book

by Gary Hanley

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, Andy Stewart wrote: > How about Matt Welsh's book: Running Linux That was my intro to Linux. 2nd edition, I think. But maybe a better idea would be to build a Gentoo system as a class project. The Gentoo on-line documention is fabulous and goes into easy to understand detail for any technical novice. Just a thought. -- Gary

March 26, 2004

Re: [Wlug] Good Beginners Book

by Adam Keck

Hello Eric, Don't forget to check out resources available online. I found these via a pdf searches on google: LINUX NEWBIE ADMINISTRATOR GUIDE http://linux-newbie.sunsite.dk/ Introduction to Linux www.tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/ Also, more resources are available on: http://www.tldp.org/guides.html -Adam On Mar 25, 2004, at 12:57 PM, Martin, Eric wrote: > Anybody have good suggestions for a good beginners linux book? I > teach Adult Education classes for Worcester, and I'm thinking of a > Linux class target towards small business owners (figure they'll be > the easiest to see the benefits.) Any ideas? > > Eric Martin > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

March 26, 2004

Re: [Wlug] Good Beginners Book

by jeff

Martin, Eric wrote: > Anybody have good suggestions for a good beginners linux book? I teach > Adult Education classes for Worcester, and I'm thinking of a Linux class > target towards small business owners (figure they'll be the easiest to > see the benefits.) Any ideas? > > Eric Martin > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug http://www.marcelgagne.com/LSAbook/index.html :-) -jeff

March 26, 2004

Re: [Wlug] Good Beginners Book

by Andy Stewart

On Thursday 25 March 2004 12:57 pm, Martin, Eric wrote: > Anybody have good suggestions for a good beginners linux book? I teach > Adult Education classes for Worcester, and I'm thinking of a Linux class > target towards small business owners (figure they'll be the easiest to see > the benefits.) Any ideas? > > Eric Martin How about Matt Welsh's book: Running Linux -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group Worcester, MA USA http://www.wlug.org

March 26, 2004

RE: [Wlug] Good Beginners Book

by JONATHAN BEALL

hi, i just wanted to answer your question, and thank you for the meeting the other night. my friend and i attended for the first time. your question: try linux in the workplace by the linux journal press. isbn is 1886411867 it's not the newest (not that old either) but it covers most of the KDE aps from 3.1 -Jonathan Beall p.s.- my friend and i just started a business called JBC Solutions. It's desktop and server linux solutions aimed specifically at the small business owner (Koffice, OOo, Samba, Apache, etc). would you mind keeping me up to date with your class? thankyou. >From: "Martin, Eric" <MartinE(a)worc.k12.ma.us> >Reply-To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> >To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> >Subject: [Wlug] Good Beginners Book >Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:57:43 -0500 > >Anybody have good suggestions for a good beginners linux book? I teach >Adult Education classes for Worcester, and I'm thinking of a Linux class >target towards small business owners (figure they'll be the easiest to see >the benefits.) Any ideas? > >Eric Martin >_______________________________________________ >Wlug mailing list >Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org >http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug _________________________________________________________________ Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp

March 25, 2004

Good Beginners Book

by Martin, Eric

Anybody have good suggestions for a good beginners linux book? I teach Adult Education classes for Worcester, and I'm thinking of a Linux class target towards small business owners (figure they'll be the easiest to see the benefits.) Any ideas? Eric Martin

March 25, 2004

ACM Installfest

by Ryan Caron

Just a reminder that the Installfest is NOT this weekend. It will be held on Sunday, April 4th, from 3 to 7PM. We will be showing Revolution OS and other computer related movies for your enjoyment between swapping out Linux installation CDs. Sincerely, Ryan Caron ACM Secretary

March 24, 2004

RedHat 9 Network Problem

by Joel Young

I just replaced Windows XP with RedHat 9 on one of my machines at home. My problem is that I can't connect to the network. If I specify DHCP and then try to connect I don't get any responses from my DHCP server and 'eth0' won't activate. If I specify a static IP address (i.e. 192.168.1.2) then 'eth0' will activate but I still can't get out on the network, event to ping. My network configuration consists of a Netgear 10/100 Wireless Router connected to a Cable Modem, with a Linksys Router/Switch to the Netgear Router to expand my ports. I've been running fine from all my XP Desktops through this configuration using DHCP. Any ideas would be appreciated.

March 24, 2004

free stuff

by Scott Venier

I'm currently in the process of moving into a new apartment and have a couple of boxes worth of stuff that I don't really feel like packing up and moving. That means it's time for the annual WLUG freestuff shuffle. ;) http://www.scooter.cx/~scott/freestuff First come, first serve. Act quickly, and I can even bring it to the meeting tomorrow evening. Act less quickly, and we can meet some other time. Act slowly, and I have to lug it into the new apartment. That's no fun. If you're not local, or know someone who's not local that wants something, I'll ship as long as I get paypal'd the cost of shipping. Anything that's not claimed by Friday is getting put up on craigslist, so don't delay. Scott

March 23, 2004

Reminder: Meeting Wed 7 PM

by Andy Stewart

Hi Everybody, Our next meeting is on Wednesday, March 24th at 7:00 PM in the usual place (Access Grid room). At this meeting, Doug Waud will be our speaker. He will talk about TeX, LaTeX, and pdfLaTeX, which are document processing systems for generating really beautiful books, especially those with alot of mathematics. I have put a couple of links on the WLUG home page for your reference. I'll bring refreshments to the meeting, and we can go out afterwards for some food. I'm not sure if the Boynton Restaurant has completed its renovations, but if not, we can go to the mexican place. I look forward to seeing many of you at the meeting. Andy -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group Worcester, MA USA http://www.wlug.org

March 23, 2004

RE: [wlug] Re: Instant Messaging Software

by Martin, Eric

gaim supports jabber -----Original Message----- From: Keller, Tim To: 'Worcester Linux Users Group' Sent: 3/19/2004 4:16 PM Subject: RE: [wlug] Re: Instant Messaging Software The biggest problem usually isn't the messaging client itself, secure or insecure. The biggest problem is the users who don't understand the technology under it. Inside of Stratus we've done a lot of education to get users to understand that IM is a completely insecure medium and that no business information is to be transmitted over it. Once you explain to Suzy accountant that when she pasts the financials into the IM window and send it to her coworker that they shoot out the door, zip half way across the country and then come back and anybody in between can read them, it suddenly hits home... I only wish that Trillian supported Jabber. I deployed a Jabber server and it worked, but the clients for windows were so crummy that nobody used it. Tim. -----Original Message----- From: Bob George [mailto:mailings02@ttlexceeded.com] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 2:30 PM To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Subject: [Wlug] Re: Instant Messaging Software Simoncini, Matthew wrote: > [...] > I work at a large company in Natick that has recently decided to > disallow instant messaging clients from being used on corporate PC's. If the policy is "no instant messaging clients", I don't think I'd load jabber, then argue the finer points. Especially if disciplinary action is noted for violations. If nothing else, make the case for an INTERNAL server, but GET APPROVAL before using it. Jabber has much to recommend it for such a server. > They sight a concern that it is an insecure network link to the outside > world that could allow hackers, worms, trojans, viruses, etc ... into > the otherwise protected network. That's a commonly cited concern, and not unwarranted. > [...] What does affect my team is the ability to easily > communicate with each other on a "live" or instant platform within the > company firewall (we have no interest really to communicate outside the > firewall yet). I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction > of an Open Source alternative to an instant messaging platform? For > starters I'm just looking for software to run on a server (either Linux > or Doze) and the associated clients to use on primarily XP or 2000 desktops. Again, I'd get approval first, but IRC can do much of what you want. There are plenty of Win clients and servers for it. - Bob _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

March 22, 2004

Re: [Wlug] wall messages on Gentoo

by Charles R. Anderson

On Sun, Mar 21, 2004 at 04:59:14PM -0500, Karl Hiramoto wrote: > Uh "mesg y" was not it. I would've spotted something that obvious. > > I did some digging found out that the tty's were in the group tty, so > added the users that needed wall access to the group, and it works now.. > > I suppose this is a bit more secure than the default redhat where any user > can write to your tty port. Red Hat ships with a set-gid tty /usr/bin/wall.

March 21, 2004

Re: [Wlug] wall messages on Gentoo

by Karl Hiramoto

Uh "mesg y" was not it. I would've spotted something that obvious. I did some digging found out that the tty's were in the group tty, so added the users that needed wall access to the group, and it works now.. I suppose this is a bit more secure than the default redhat where any user can write to your tty port. thx tho > Crap, sorry about that last message... > > "Karl Hiramoto" <karl(a)hiramoto.org> writes: > >> wall works, but you have to be root. > > Perhaps they default mesg to n? > > try mesg y. > >>From the man page: > > The mesg utility is invoked by a users to control write access > others have to the terminal device associated with the standard > error output. Write access is allowed by default, and programs > such as talk(1) and write(1) may display messages on the > terminal. > > Options available: > > n Disallows messages. > > y Permits messages to be displayed. > > > -- > Josh Huber > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- Karl Hiramoto <karl(a)hiramoto.org> Work: 978-425-2090 ext 25 Cell: 508-517-4819 Personal web page: http://karl.hiramoto.org/ AOL IM ID = KarlH420 Yahoo_IM = karl_hiramoto

March 21, 2004

Re: [Wlug] wall messages on Gentoo

by Josh Huber

Crap, sorry about that last message... "Karl Hiramoto" <karl(a)hiramoto.org> writes: > wall works, but you have to be root. Perhaps they default mesg to n? try mesg y. >From the man page: The mesg utility is invoked by a users to control write access others have to the terminal device associated with the standard error output. Write access is allowed by default, and programs such as talk(1) and write(1) may display messages on the terminal. Options available: n Disallows messages. y Permits messages to be displayed. -- Josh Huber

March 21, 2004

Re: [Wlug] wall messages on Gentoo

by Josh Huber

"Karl Hiramoto" <karl(a)hiramoto.org> writes: > I've had the wall behavior before broadcasting to allusers work > before on other distro's (slackware & redhat) but now on gentoo it > seems to be locked down. > > talk works, but instead of "talk user" you need to specify "talk > user@localhost" > > wall works, but you have to be root. > >> Don't know specifically about gentoo, but try the 'write' or 'talk' >> command instead of 'wall', but that'll go only to speified users. >> >> Karl Hiramoto wrote: >> >>> Anyone know how to allow users other than root to wall messages to other >>> logins? >>> >>> wall "test" >>> only displays to other users if doing it from root. >>> >>> Do i need to be in a certain group? >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Karl Hiramoto <karl(a)hiramoto.org> >>> Work: 978-425-2090 ext 25 >>> Cell: 508-517-4819 >>> Personal web page: http://karl.hiramoto.org/ >>> AOL IM ID = KarlH420 Yahoo_IM = karl_hiramoto >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wlug mailing list >>> Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org >>> http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >> >> -- >> Dwight A. Ernest, dwight at significant dot com GPG key A6999567 >> Cell: +1-508-523-1416 FAX: +1-978-405-2504 YIM: dwight_ernest >> RHCE #803004293310030 http://significant.com/~dwight/ KA2CNN >> Papa, partner, pilot, net geek, sysadmin, consultant, cohouser. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wlug mailing list >> Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org >> http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >> -- Josh Huber

March 21, 2004

Re: [Wlug] wall messages on Gentoo

by Karl Hiramoto

I've had the wall behavior before broadcasting to allusers work before on other distro's (slackware & redhat) but now on gentoo it seems to be locked down. talk works, but instead of "talk user" you need to specify "talk user@localhost" wall works, but you have to be root. > Don't know specifically about gentoo, but try the 'write' or 'talk' > command instead of 'wall', but that'll go only to speified users. > > Karl Hiramoto wrote: > >> Anyone know how to allow users other than root to wall messages to other >> logins? >> >> wall "test" >> only displays to other users if doing it from root. >> >> Do i need to be in a certain group? >> >> >> -- >> Karl Hiramoto <karl(a)hiramoto.org> >> Work: 978-425-2090 ext 25 >> Cell: 508-517-4819 >> Personal web page: http://karl.hiramoto.org/ >> AOL IM ID = KarlH420 Yahoo_IM = karl_hiramoto >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wlug mailing list >> Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org >> http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > -- > Dwight A. Ernest, dwight at significant dot com GPG key A6999567 > Cell: +1-508-523-1416 FAX: +1-978-405-2504 YIM: dwight_ernest > RHCE #803004293310030 http://significant.com/~dwight/ KA2CNN > Papa, partner, pilot, net geek, sysadmin, consultant, cohouser. > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- Karl Hiramoto <karl(a)hiramoto.org> Work: 978-425-2090 ext 25 Cell: 508-517-4819 Personal web page: http://karl.hiramoto.org/ AOL IM ID = KarlH420 Yahoo_IM = karl_hiramoto

March 21, 2004

Re: [Wlug] wall messages on Gentoo

by Dwight A. Ernest

Don't know specifically about gentoo, but try the 'write' or 'talk' command instead of 'wall', but that'll go only to speified users. Karl Hiramoto wrote: > Anyone know how to allow users other than root to wall messages to other > logins? > > wall "test" > only displays to other users if doing it from root. > > Do i need to be in a certain group? > > > -- > Karl Hiramoto <karl(a)hiramoto.org> > Work: 978-425-2090 ext 25 > Cell: 508-517-4819 > Personal web page: http://karl.hiramoto.org/ > AOL IM ID = KarlH420 Yahoo_IM = karl_hiramoto > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug -- Dwight A. Ernest, dwight at significant dot com GPG key A6999567 Cell: +1-508-523-1416 FAX: +1-978-405-2504 YIM: dwight_ernest RHCE #803004293310030 http://significant.com/~dwight/ KA2CNN Papa, partner, pilot, net geek, sysadmin, consultant, cohouser.

March 21, 2004

wall messages on Gentoo

by Karl Hiramoto

Anyone know how to allow users other than root to wall messages to other logins? wall "test" only displays to other users if doing it from root. Do i need to be in a certain group? -- Karl Hiramoto <karl(a)hiramoto.org> Work: 978-425-2090 ext 25 Cell: 508-517-4819 Personal web page: http://karl.hiramoto.org/ AOL IM ID = KarlH420 Yahoo_IM = karl_hiramoto

March 21, 2004

Re: Instant Messaging Software

by Bob George

Keller, Tim wrote: >[...] >I only wish that Trillian supported Jabber. I deployed a Jabber server and >it worked, but the clients for windows were so crummy that nobody used it. > > One of Trillian's biggest strengths (and from the corporate perspective, perhaps weakness) is the ability to create and manage IM accounts with AIM, Yahoo! etc. If you're after a Jabber-only capability (i.e. internal jabber server), I've found Exodus and PSI to be excellent clients, available on Windows and X. PSI supports SSL, which is nice for off-site users. - Bob

March 20, 2004

Salvage flashdisk

by Joel Desrochers

Tim, Here is one software I have heard was good, but have never used, Photorecovery. It is offered for XP or Mac OS 10. The demo is free. http://www.lc-tech.com/photorecovery.htm If you try it and it works, please let me know. Joel Desrochers Message: 6 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:24:37 -0500 From: "Keller, Tim" <Tim.Keller(a)stratus.com> Subject: [Wlug] Salvage flashdisk To: "'wlug(a)wlug.org'" <wlug(a)wlug.org> Message-ID: <CAC3BCBB443DEC439198F230B4BCC7E9035B1A9F(a)exna6-ftsaa.mis.stratus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've got a 32mb flash disk that's gone bad. Ironically it went bad before I had a chance to pull the pictures off of it. I can't open it with fdisk nor will doing a dd if=/dev/sda of=image_of_flash_disk will work. Anybody got any good ideas or know of utilities that might be capable of salvaging the data? Thanks, Tim. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/

March 19, 2004

Re: [wlug] Re: Instant Messaging Software

by Chuck Homic

On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 04:16:20PM -0500, Keller, Tim wrote: > I only wish that Trillian supported Jabber. I deployed a Jabber server and > it worked, but the clients for windows were so crummy that nobody used it. Trillian supports IRC, and an IRC server is really easy to set up. I did this at work, and no one used it, either. :) -Chuck

March 19, 2004

RE: [wlug] Re: Instant Messaging Software

by Keller, Tim

The biggest problem usually isn't the messaging client itself, secure or insecure. The biggest problem is the users who don't understand the technology under it. Inside of Stratus we've done a lot of education to get users to understand that IM is a completely insecure medium and that no business information is to be transmitted over it. Once you explain to Suzy accountant that when she pasts the financials into the IM window and send it to her coworker that they shoot out the door, zip half way across the country and then come back and anybody in between can read them, it suddenly hits home... I only wish that Trillian supported Jabber. I deployed a Jabber server and it worked, but the clients for windows were so crummy that nobody used it. Tim. -----Original Message----- From: Bob George [mailto:mailings02@ttlexceeded.com] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 2:30 PM To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Subject: [Wlug] Re: Instant Messaging Software Simoncini, Matthew wrote: > [...] > I work at a large company in Natick that has recently decided to > disallow instant messaging clients from being used on corporate PC's. If the policy is "no instant messaging clients", I don't think I'd load jabber, then argue the finer points. Especially if disciplinary action is noted for violations. If nothing else, make the case for an INTERNAL server, but GET APPROVAL before using it. Jabber has much to recommend it for such a server. > They sight a concern that it is an insecure network link to the outside > world that could allow hackers, worms, trojans, viruses, etc ... into > the otherwise protected network. That's a commonly cited concern, and not unwarranted. > [...] What does affect my team is the ability to easily > communicate with each other on a "live" or instant platform within the > company firewall (we have no interest really to communicate outside the > firewall yet). I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction > of an Open Source alternative to an instant messaging platform? For > starters I'm just looking for software to run on a server (either Linux > or Doze) and the associated clients to use on primarily XP or 2000 desktops. Again, I'd get approval first, but IRC can do much of what you want. There are plenty of Win clients and servers for it. - Bob _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

March 19, 2004

Re: Instant Messaging Software

by Bob George

Simoncini, Matthew wrote: > [...] > I work at a large company in Natick that has recently decided to > disallow instant messaging clients from being used on corporate PC's. If the policy is "no instant messaging clients", I don't think I'd load jabber, then argue the finer points. Especially if disciplinary action is noted for violations. If nothing else, make the case for an INTERNAL server, but GET APPROVAL before using it. Jabber has much to recommend it for such a server. > They sight a concern that it is an insecure network link to the outside > world that could allow hackers, worms, trojans, viruses, etc ... into > the otherwise protected network. That's a commonly cited concern, and not unwarranted. > [...] What does affect my team is the ability to easily > communicate with each other on a "live" or instant platform within the > company firewall (we have no interest really to communicate outside the > firewall yet). I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction > of an Open Source alternative to an instant messaging platform? For > starters I'm just looking for software to run on a server (either Linux > or Doze) and the associated clients to use on primarily XP or 2000 desktops. Again, I'd get approval first, but IRC can do much of what you want. There are plenty of Win clients and servers for it. - Bob

March 19, 2004

Re: [Wlug] Instant Messaging Software

by Theo Van Dinter

On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 02:01:09PM -0500, Theo Van Dinter wrote: > I don't think IM is a replace-all for phones or in-person meetings, > but it does better handle/allow a lot of communications in a more > efficient manner. IMHO. Oh, I forgot one... It's easier for me to encrypt my IM sessions than it is to encrypt my phone conversations. If you're paranoid, as I am(*), this is important. * - As someone you routinely captures network traffic at work, and who watches other people in the group addicted to running AIMsniff off the firewall port ... -- Randomly Generated Tagline: "What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch?" - W.C. Fields

March 19, 2004

Re: [Wlug] Instant Messaging Software

by Theo Van Dinter

On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 01:37:25PM -0500, Gary Hanley wrote: > Ha. I still, for the life of me, have not seen the value-added benefit of > IM over a good old-fashioned telephone or conference call. Just a few reasons from my POV: 1) phones aren't available everywhere, and cell phone coverage is spotty/dead in lots of areas. (for example, inside my company's colo facility...) 2) it's quick and easy if you're already online. need to shoot a command to someone or ask a quick 5 second question? it'll take me longer to find/remember/dial their phone number than it is to goto my IM "buddy" listing and type it. 3) unless you record it, there's no trail of conversations on the phone. I "record" all IM conversations that I have -- really excellent to remember little snippets of information. as an example, I opened a hardware case with IBM the other day, but a coworker was going to be the contact, so I IMed the case # to him. The next day, I needed to call IBM about the case... Without having the conversation "recorded", I'd have had no way to know what the case # was (didn't write it down, and the coworker was unavailable). I've also done this type of thing with conversations I had over a year ago. (this is the same reason I pretty much save all email I send/receive btw...) 4) IM is good for multiple short conversations throughout the day -- my wife/friend/coworker can IM me in the morning, and I can just keep the window open for any thoughts/questions/etc throughout the day. 5) If I'm not around, but someone IMs me a question, I'll see it when I get back to my computer and can respond directly. If someone calls me (see #6 below) I'd either have to tell them to call me back later when I'm at my computer, or they'd leave me voice mail and I'd have to go through the bother of getting the VM then calling back, etc, etc. 6) I can walk away from my IM window and get lunch or something -- if people knew my cell phone number, I'd have yet another electronic leash. 7) I pay for phone calls, I don't pay for IM. If I'm using my home phone (pay per call + per minute) or my cell phone (pay per minute), that costs me money that I normally wouldn't have to pay... Not to mention the fact that sometimes you want to talk to people who aren't local which costs more money. However, I'm already paying for bandwidth no matter how much I use. 8) I usually type more "correctly" than I talk. 9) I spend a lot of time working on open source software (one program specifically), and sometimes need to converse with other developers on the project. I'm here in MA, some are in CA, some in Canada, some in Germany, etc... It's easier to IM than setup a multi-country conference call. 10) if you're on the phone and want to talk to someone else either about the call or something different, then you'd have to hang up and call someone else, or get multiple phones, or ... an example: I was on a con call with several of the above mentioned open source developers, and the legal department of a large company we're conversing with -- but we (developers) wanted to chat during the call without having the other group overhear, so we had an IM chat session going in the background. 11) I don't like using the phone. :P I don't think IM is a replace-all for phones or in-person meetings, but it does better handle/allow a lot of communications in a more efficient manner. IMHO. -- Randomly Generated Tagline: "... although it's better if you call it an osculating circle because nobody knows what it means. Except those smarty-pants math professors..." - Prof. Farr

March 19, 2004