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Re: [Wlug] Convert Quickbooks to GnuCash

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Eric" == Eric Martin <freak4uxxx(a)gmail.com> writes: Eric> What bank do you use? GnuCash has a bunch of resources on their wiki I use Bank of America. I tried getting GnuCash to work, but they (BoA) wanted $10/mon to turn on the support for this stuff. Needless to say, I'm starting to move all my banking elsewhere to get better support. John

Dec. 14, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Convert Quickbooks to GnuCash

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Eric" == Eric Martin <freak4uxxx(a)gmail.com> writes: Eric> John Stoffel wrote: >> Has anyone had success in having Gnucash talk directly to the Bank >> and/or Credit Card company to pull down information, and (ideally) >> push transactions to the bank? >> >> I'm getting sick in tired of my banks web interface, mostly because >> it's such a damn manual process to actually pull down the transactions >> in QIF format. >> >> I'm thinking of moving from BoA to DCU completely, if I can make it >> work. Or to another bank (within reason) to make my life simpler. >> Another goal is to be able to download my Credit Card statements >> automatically each time I fire up GnuCash so I can track those Eric> I have successfully configured GNUCash to pull down my data from Eric> discover card. This si good to know. How finiky was it? I'm still dealing with ice storm stuff (power only out for 12 hours thank god) but it's relatively minor. Eric> Additionally, I download my data from my bank in M$ format (OFX) Eric> and it imports perfectly. That's fine, but I don't want to have to: open browser login to bank click to download section pick right stuff to get download close browser open gnucash import data I just want to open GnuCash and have it do the work for me! :]

Dec. 14, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Convert Quickbooks to GnuCash

by Eric Martin

Dec. 13, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Convert Quickbooks to GnuCash

by Eric Martin

John Stoffel wrote: > Has anyone had success in having Gnucash talk directly to the Bank > and/or Credit Card company to pull down information, and (ideally) > push transactions to the bank? > > I'm getting sick in tired of my banks web interface, mostly because > it's such a damn manual process to actually pull down the transactions > in QIF format. > > I'm thinking of moving from BoA to DCU completely, if I can make it > work. Or to another bank (within reason) to make my life simpler. > Another goal is to be able to download my Credit Card statements > automatically each time I fire up GnuCash so I can track those > > I have successfully configured GNUCash to pull down my data from discover card. Additionally, I download my data from my bank in M$ format (OFX) and it imports perfectly.

Dec. 13, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Convert Quickbooks to GnuCash

by Michael Long

> Eric> I regularly import qib's into gnucash, but they're from my bank. > Eric> Have you tried to make a copy of the data and just do a straight > Eric> import? > > What do you mean by a straight import? Quickbooks does not support exporting to IIF format. I can save a report to a csv format but have not figured out how to import that into gnucash. > Has anyone had success in having Gnucash talk directly to the Bank > and/or Credit Card company to pull down information, and (ideally) > push transactions to the bank? > > I'm getting sick in tired of my banks web interface, mostly because > it's such a damn manual process to actually pull down the transactions > in QIF format. > > I'm thinking of moving from BoA to DCU completely, if I can make it > work. Or to another bank (within reason) to make my life simpler. > Another goal is to be able to download my Credit Card statements > automatically each time I fire up GnuCash so I can track those > expenses better. > I started looking at the AqBanking wizard for gnucash but get stuck with bank code when creating a new PIN/TAN user. I could not find any information with google that allowed me to make sense of how the interface works with BofA. It looks like it will be a manual process for now.

Dec. 9, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Convert Quickbooks to GnuCash

by John Stoffel

Eric> I regularly import qib's into gnucash, but they're from my bank. Eric> Have you tried to make a copy of the data and just do a straight Eric> import? Has anyone had success in having Gnucash talk directly to the Bank and/or Credit Card company to pull down information, and (ideally) push transactions to the bank? I'm getting sick in tired of my banks web interface, mostly because it's such a damn manual process to actually pull down the transactions in QIF format. I'm thinking of moving from BoA to DCU completely, if I can make it work. Or to another bank (within reason) to make my life simpler. Another goal is to be able to download my Credit Card statements automatically each time I fire up GnuCash so I can track those expenses better. John

Dec. 8, 2008

JOB: Implementation Engineer

by Tal Cohen

The Implementation Engineer is a product expert who is responsible for the configuration, deployment and support of SiteSpect's core products. This is a technical position that requires experience in Unix system, Web applications, load balancing and networking/DNS. This is an ideal opportunity for system and network administrators with a history of working with both technical (IT) and non-technical (business and marketing) teams to define system requirements, plan projects, and ultimately deliver the solution. Required technical skills include: * Linux/Unix administration and troubleshooting * Web server configuration, tuning & administration * knowledge of DNS, networking and load balancing principles * shell scripting such as bash, perl, python or PHP * experience with system monitoring tools such as nagios, sar, xosview Responsibilities include scheduled on-call duty and occasional travel to assist customers with installations and system maintenance. Candidates should have experience working in a team environment alongside other engineers and product managers. You should be comfortable with the dynamic and fast pace that is typical for an Internet software startup. This is a full time position located in our office in downtown Boston, MA. We are minutes away from Park Street MBTA stop, central to all subway and commuter rail lines. If this sounds like you, then SiteSpect might be your next home. As the company that leads its market space in power and innovation, we guarantee excitement, challenge and an unlimited opportunity to contribute. Interested candidates should submit resume and cover letter via email to tcohen(a)sitespect.com. No agencies, recruiters or phone calls, please. Unless otherwise noted, all positions are located in Boston, MA.

Dec. 6, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Convert Quickbooks to GnuCash

by Eric Martin

Michael Long wrote: > Hi, > Has anyone had a experience migrating from quickbooks to gnucash? I have > been google'ing for the past couple of hours looking for solutions but > have not really found one that works for me. The only one I have found > requires Excel (xl2qif Excel Macro). > -mike > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > I regularly import qib's into gnucash, but they're from my bank. Have you tried to make a copy of the data and just do a straight import?

Dec. 6, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Policy Questions

by Andy Stewart

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Tal Cohen wrote: > What is the policy for posting open positions on this group? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug HI Tal, Many folks consider them spam, but not all. This mailing list belongs to all of us, so I let them go through to try to keep everybody happy since we aren't getting inundated at this time. I've allowed a couple of recruiters to post without asking each time as long as they put "JOB:" at the beginning of the subject line so folks can filter as they desire, and they've been really good about honoring this request. Many recruiters ask before posting, and others just post. If somebody is sufficiently polite as to ask, I'll allow it as long as they don't get abusive by posting too much stuff. Later, Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJOeS3Hl0iXDssISsRArEwAJ0UrdxmRH+weylGxzaJAslVVSF43ACfZOuT EhUDQgqKCJdf83PLby8VSkk= =NWoU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Dec. 6, 2008

Policy Questions

by Tal Cohen

What is the policy for posting open positions on this group?

Dec. 5, 2008

Convert Quickbooks to GnuCash

by Michael Long

Hi, Has anyone had a experience migrating from quickbooks to gnucash? I have been google'ing for the past couple of hours looking for solutions but have not really found one that works for me. The only one I have found requires Excel (xl2qif Excel Macro). -mike

Dec. 5, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Fedora 10 and sound

by Chuck Anderson

On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 12:45:11PM -0500, Jeff Moyer wrote: > Aaron Haviland <orion(a)parsed.net> writes: > > > dulsi(a)identicalsoftware.com wrote, on Nov 30, 2008 at 17:53 EST: > >> I don't have a problem with the volume. The sound just skips. I > >> added myself to the pulse-rt group which was suggested on the fedora > >> forum. As said on the forum, it improves the situation but does not > >> make it perfect. Finally I ended up changing > >> System->Preferences->Hardware->Sound from Autodetect to ESS Allegro > >> PCI Allegro (OSS). Unfortunately the gnome-mplayer doesn't use that > >> setting and ignores the preferences where you specify the audio > >> driver. Running it from the command line with -ao oss works. > > > > then maybe try specifying in ~/.mplayer/config: > > > > ao=oss > > How about just filing a bug? Call me crazy, but I don't think it's too > much to ask for the defaults to just work. I already pointed to a bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=462026 Instead of using the obsolete OSS interface or downgrading alsa-plugins-pulseaudio as a workaround, you might try disabling timer-based audio scheduling: Replace the line: load-module module-hal-detect in /etc/pulse/default.pa by: load-module module-hal-detect tsched=0

Dec. 2, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Fedora 10 and sound

by Tim Keller

You obviously haven't used Fedora enough! It should be implied that some feature that *just worked* in a prior release will be broken in some obscure and undocumented way... -Tim. On 12/1/08, Jeff Moyer <jmoyer(a)redhat.com> wrote: > Aaron Haviland <orion(a)parsed.net> writes: > >> dulsi(a)identicalsoftware.com wrote, on Nov 30, 2008 at 17:53 EST: >>> I don't have a problem with the volume. The sound just skips. I >>> added myself to the pulse-rt group which was suggested on the fedora >>> forum. As said on the forum, it improves the situation but does not >>> make it perfect. Finally I ended up changing >>> System->Preferences->Hardware->Sound from Autodetect to ESS Allegro >>> PCI Allegro (OSS). Unfortunately the gnome-mplayer doesn't use that >>> setting and ignores the preferences where you specify the audio >>> driver. Running it from the command line with -ao oss works. >> >> then maybe try specifying in ~/.mplayer/config: >> >> ao=oss > > How about just filing a bug? Call me crazy, but I don't think it's too > much to ask for the defaults to just work. > > Cheers, > Jeff > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com I am weary of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Dec. 2, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Fedora 10 and sound

by Jeff Moyer

Aaron Haviland <orion(a)parsed.net> writes: > dulsi(a)identicalsoftware.com wrote, on Nov 30, 2008 at 17:53 EST: >> I don't have a problem with the volume. The sound just skips. I >> added myself to the pulse-rt group which was suggested on the fedora >> forum. As said on the forum, it improves the situation but does not >> make it perfect. Finally I ended up changing >> System->Preferences->Hardware->Sound from Autodetect to ESS Allegro >> PCI Allegro (OSS). Unfortunately the gnome-mplayer doesn't use that >> setting and ignores the preferences where you specify the audio >> driver. Running it from the command line with -ao oss works. > > then maybe try specifying in ~/.mplayer/config: > > ao=oss How about just filing a bug? Call me crazy, but I don't think it's too much to ask for the defaults to just work. Cheers, Jeff

Dec. 1, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Fedora 10 and sound

by Aaron Haviland

dulsi(a)identicalsoftware.com wrote, on Nov 30, 2008 at 17:53 EST: > I don't have a problem with the volume. The sound just skips. I > added myself to the pulse-rt group which was suggested on the fedora > forum. As said on the forum, it improves the situation but does not > make it perfect. Finally I ended up changing > System->Preferences->Hardware->Sound from Autodetect to ESS Allegro > PCI Allegro (OSS). Unfortunately the gnome-mplayer doesn't use that > setting and ignores the preferences where you specify the audio > driver. Running it from the command line with -ao oss works. then maybe try specifying in ~/.mplayer/config: ao=oss -- Aaron Haviland 34 Wayne Ave, Dudley, MA home: [508] 943 - 7974

Dec. 1, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Fedora 10 and sound

by dulsi＠identicalsoftware.com

I don't have a problem with the volume. The sound just skips. I added myself to the pulse-rt group which was suggested on the fedora forum. As said on the forum, it improves the situation but does not make it perfect. Finally I ended up changing System->Preferences->Hardware->Sound from Autodetect to ESS Allegro PCI Allegro (OSS). Unfortunately the gnome-mplayer doesn't use that setting and ignores the preferences where you specify the audio driver. Running it from the command line with -ao oss works. Dennis Payne dulsi(a)identicalsoftware.com

Nov. 30, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Fedora 10 and sound

by Chuck Anderson

A couple things: Make sure the volume is turned up on all mixer devices--either run "alsamixer -c0" from a terminal to bypass the PulseAudio mixer and control the underlying ALSA device, or right-click the volume control icon in the GNOME menu bar and click "Open Volume Control". Also, right-click the volume control icon and go to Preferences to set the which sound card and mixer slider the icon controls. Finally, check the PulseAudio volume control in Applications->Sound and Video->PulseAudio Volume Control. If you have more than one sound card (USB headset, onboard vs. PCI sound card, etc.) make sure PulseAudio is set to use the "right" one by default by right clicking the Output Device and selecting Default. If you leave the PulseAudio volume control open while trying to play sounds and music, you should see each application show up under Playback. You can move the streams between different output devices on-the-fly, control their volumes independently, etc. If you still can't get sound, try temporarily bypassing PulseAudio to see if the underlying ALSA device works: As root: su - mv /etc/alsa/pulse-default.conf /root exit As a normal user, stop the PulseAudio daemon: killall pulseaudio Try a sound application, setting its output device to ALSA instead of PulseAudio. Bear in mind that the PulseAudio daemon may try to respawn if you attempt to use an application that is set to PulseAudio or ESD/ESound output. You may have to "killall pulseaudio" again. After testing, move the file back: su - mv /root/pulse-default.conf /etc/alsa/ exit If you have a SoundBlaster Live! or similar card that uses the emu10k1 ALSA driver, there is a known issue with hiccups etc. when playing music through the new PulseAudio "Glitch-Free" plugin. The bug is actually in the ALSA emu10ki driver but doesn't show up under the older PulseAudio or non-PulseAudio cases since only the new PulseAudio "Glitch-Free" code uses the driver functions/APIs that are buggy. There may be problems with some of the other drivers too, such as Intel HDA (snd_hda_intel). https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=462026 I've had luck downgrading the Fedora 10 pulseaudio plugin to the Fedora 9 one which doesn't use the new "Glitch-Free" stuff: 32-bit: rpm -Uvh --oldpackage http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/releases/9/Fedora/i386/o… 64-bit: rpm -Uvh --oldpackage http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/releases/9/Fedora/x86_64… Finally, I encourage you to try the above steps to make PulseAudio work before going this route, but if you want to give up on PulseAudio altogether, you can disable it by removing this package: yum remove pulseaudio You won't have sound mixing, per-application volume controls, on-the-fly audio stream moving between output devices, etc. but it might work better for you until some of the ALSA kernel driver bugs are fixed. On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 02:29:42PM -0500, Walt wrote: > I, too, have found that after an upgrade to Fedora 10, the sound on my > laptop stopped working. Any ideas? > Walt > > dulsi(a)identicalsoftware.com wrote: > > I decided to install fedora 10. I understand that my laptop is old > > (bought in 2002). Fedora 8 had problems installing due to 256M of ram > > but ran fine once I got it installed. I've since upgraded the memory > > but fedora 10 can't play audio. Any music file I've tried lags > > horribly. Is there any configuration I can modify to fix the problem? > > Alternatively can the audio server be disabled?

Nov. 30, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Fedora 10 and sound

by Walt

I, too, have found that after an upgrade to Fedora 10, the sound on my laptop stopped working. Any ideas? Walt dulsi(a)identicalsoftware.com wrote: > I decided to install fedora 10. I understand that my laptop is old > (bought in 2002). Fedora 8 had problems installing due to 256M of ram > but ran fine once I got it installed. I've since upgraded the memory > but fedora 10 can't play audio. Any music file I've tried lags > horribly. Is there any configuration I can modify to fix the problem? > Alternatively can the audio server be disabled? > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >

Nov. 30, 2008

Fedora 10 and sound

by dulsi＠identicalsoftware.com

I decided to install fedora 10. I understand that my laptop is old (bought in 2002). Fedora 8 had problems installing due to 256M of ram but ran fine once I got it installed. I've since upgraded the memory but fedora 10 can't play audio. Any music file I've tried lags horribly. Is there any configuration I can modify to fix the problem? Alternatively can the audio server be disabled?

Nov. 29, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Community Training

by Clint Moyer

---- Michael Long <mlong(a)datalong.com> wrote: ============= The Free Geek project looks like my idea on steroids. Too bad they are on the other coast. They are a good resource though. http://www.fgri.org

Nov. 24, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Community Training

by Michael Long

Thanks for these resources. It looks like the worcestercoop.org site may not be maintained anymore. I have found some other contact info and will follow up on that. Any other folks you could send my way is greatly appreciated. The Free Geek project looks like my idea on steroids. Too bad they are on the other coast. They are a good resource though. Does anyone have experience with local recyclers? If we start getting donated equipment we need a cost effective way to get rid of old monitors etc. Mike nassar(a)alum.wpi.edu wrote: > There's a computer co-op in Worcester that's run out of a church > basement. I'm CCing some friends who are involved. It's a public lab > that also builds computers to give to neighborhood kids. > http://www.nindy.com/wcc/ > > My experience is that Ubuntu is very easy for people who are beginner > Windows users to pick up. People who are advanced enough to burn a CD in > Windows can usually try it out themselves no problem. > > Nick > >>>>>> "Aaron" == Aaron Haviland <orion(a)parsed.net> writes: > > Aaron> mlong(a)datalong.com wrote, on Nov 23, 2008 at 11:37 EST: > >> Hi All, > >> > >> I have floated the following idea at my church and it has been > >> well received. Seek donations of older computers, have the youth > >> group refurbish them, sell them at a low price with user training > >> and support to seniors. The money raised will go to the youth > >> group. The systems would be optimized for email and web > >> surfing. Naturally Linux would be the OS. > >> > >> Is this a crazy idea? Has anyone done something similar? Are > >> there resources available to help with this sort of thing? > > Aaron> My typical response to such inquiries is to point folks to > Aaron> http://freegeek.org as a long standing example of > Aaron> recycling/refurbishing computers for those in need. > > Aaron> I've not followed their progress in many years, but they were > Aaron> quite strong back in 2003, and still seem to be going rather > Aaron> well, with other regional FreeGeek "family members" popping > Aaron> up across the country. > > Aaron> I've long wanted to see one such venture around here, but > Aaron> ... there's too much work involved :P > > Aaron> -- Aaron Haviland 34 Wayne Ave, Dudley, MA > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

Nov. 24, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Community Training

by nassar＠alum.wpi.edu

There's a computer co-op in Worcester that's run out of a church basement. I'm CCing some friends who are involved. It's a public lab that also builds computers to give to neighborhood kids. http://www.nindy.com/wcc/ My experience is that Ubuntu is very easy for people who are beginner Windows users to pick up. People who are advanced enough to burn a CD in Windows can usually try it out themselves no problem. Nick >>>>> "Aaron" == Aaron Haviland <orion(a)parsed.net> writes: Aaron> mlong(a)datalong.com wrote, on Nov 23, 2008 at 11:37 EST: >> Hi All, >> >> I have floated the following idea at my church and it has been >> well received. Seek donations of older computers, have the youth >> group refurbish them, sell them at a low price with user training >> and support to seniors. The money raised will go to the youth >> group. The systems would be optimized for email and web >> surfing. Naturally Linux would be the OS. >> >> Is this a crazy idea? Has anyone done something similar? Are >> there resources available to help with this sort of thing? Aaron> My typical response to such inquiries is to point folks to Aaron> http://freegeek.org as a long standing example of Aaron> recycling/refurbishing computers for those in need. Aaron> I've not followed their progress in many years, but they were Aaron> quite strong back in 2003, and still seem to be going rather Aaron> well, with other regional FreeGeek "family members" popping Aaron> up across the country. Aaron> I've long wanted to see one such venture around here, but Aaron> ... there's too much work involved :P Aaron> -- Aaron Haviland 34 Wayne Ave, Dudley, MA

Nov. 24, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Community Training

by Aaron Haviland

mlong(a)datalong.com wrote, on Nov 23, 2008 at 11:37 EST: > Hi All, > > I have floated the following idea at my church and it has been well received. Seek donations of older computers, have the youth group refurbish them, sell them at a low price with user training and support to seniors. The money raised will go to the youth group. The systems would be optimized for email and web surfing. Naturally Linux would be the OS. > > Is this a crazy idea? Has anyone done something similar? Are there resources available to help with this sort of thing? My typical response to such inquiries is to point folks to http://freegeek.org as a long standing example of recycling/refurbishing computers for those in need. I've not followed their progress in many years, but they were quite strong back in 2003, and still seem to be going rather well, with other regional FreeGeek "family members" popping up across the country. I've long wanted to see one such venture around here, but ... there's too much work involved :P -- Aaron Haviland 34 Wayne Ave, Dudley, MA

Nov. 24, 2008

Community Training

by mlong＠datalong.com

Hi All, I have floated the following idea at my church and it has been well received. Seek donations of older computers, have the youth group refurbish them, sell them at a low price with user training and support to seniors. The money raised will go to the youth group. The systems would be optimized for email and web surfing. Naturally Linux would be the OS. Is this a crazy idea? Has anyone done something similar? Are there resources available to help with this sort of thing? Thanks, Mike Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

Nov. 23, 2008

[JOB:SR WEB APPLICATIONS ENGINEER]

by Mark Richards

With thanks to the mailing list owners for the privilege of posting here. -- -- -- ---- -- -- ---- -- -- ---- -- -- ---- -- -- ---- -- -- ---- -- - SolarWave Energy has an immediate opening for a full-time Senior Web Application Developer to develop business intelligence web applications. SolarWave Energy is a small, growing company in the emerging Cleantech field. We provide information technology products and services to the renewable energy industry. We are committed to an economy based on renewable energy. Our systems collect streaming data from our sensor networks, and our web applications analyze synthesize the data and present the resulting information. Our applications and user interface facilitate two-way communication, allowing for analysis and action. The Senior Web Application Developer will work with the web architect in the development of SolarWave's database and web applications. The work will involve development, coding, and evaluation of new web applications. You will have an opportunity to participate in the entire lifecycle of application development - from concept to release to support. Our offices are in Cambridge and Litleton, MA. We plan to relocate to the Metro West area within a few months. We offer: . competitive salary . software design experience . opportunity for advancement as the company grows Qualifications: . Bachelors Degree, preferably in computer science or related field . 3 years minimum experience in web application development . Experience writing with: Php, Perl/Python, Javascript, Flash animation, Flex, Web 2.0 API's . Experience interacting with: MySQL database technologies, PostgreSQL, SAP Db, Apache web server . familiarity with Linux Operating Systems a plus . Windows IT support experience a plus Experience in one of the following fields is also desirable: . Renewable Energy Systems . Energy Efficiency and Management . Energy Monitoring and Metering . LEED Building Certification . Environmental Monitoring . Adaptive Control Systems The ideal candidate will be: . an independent critical thinker and self motivator who can also take direction and seek guidance . a good communicator . flexible . able to work well in a small office environment If you are interested in this exciting opportunity in the emerging Cleantech industry, send a cover letter and resume to: SolarWave Energy 617 242 2150 jobs=at=solarwave=dotto=com

Nov. 21, 2008