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Re: Reminder!! WLUG meeting July 11th 2024 @7pm: Location: Technocopia!

by Tim Keller

Awesome! That would be really cool to see! Also, yes, the data on that page is VERY outdated! I'll get on fixing that! Also, my CC just got hit with a charge for Meetup, so I might as well keep that up to date as well! Thanks, Tim. On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:30 PM Jansen Smith <Jansen(a)bstarengineering.com> wrote: > I have a demo of open source LLM document parsing prepped. > I *might* have an open LLM terminal interpreter demo prepped... We'll see. > > Also, this info on WLUG.org's Participate tab seems outdated: > > > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 5:59 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> > wrote: > >> Hey everybody! >> >> We've got a WLUG meeting this Thursday at technocopia! >> >> Time: 7pm >> Date: July 11th 2024 >> Location: 44 Portland St. Worcester MA >> Virtual Location: https://meet.jit.si/WlugMA >> >> Topic(s): >> SSH exploits >> There's been plenty of talk about Ubuntu upgrades, it's worth talking >> about various backup strategies and options that are out there. If people >> have other things they want to talk about, by all means! I've continued to >> tinker with the LLM stuff and I'll have that laptop with me as well. >> >> After the meeting we'll head off for dinner to keep the conversation >> going. >> >> Later, >> Tim. >> >> >> >> -- >> I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their >> constituents as "consumers". >> _______________________________________________ >> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >> Change Settings: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >> Web Forum/Archive: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/NSTLC… >> > -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

July 11, 2024

Re: Reminder!! WLUG meeting July 11th 2024 @7pm: Location: Technocopia!

by Jansen Smith

I have a demo of open source LLM document parsing prepped. I *might* have an open LLM terminal interpreter demo prepped... We'll see. Also, this info on WLUG.org's Participate tab seems outdated: On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 5:59 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > Hey everybody! > > We've got a WLUG meeting this Thursday at technocopia! > > Time: 7pm > Date: July 11th 2024 > Location: 44 Portland St. Worcester MA > Virtual Location: https://meet.jit.si/WlugMA > > Topic(s): > SSH exploits > There's been plenty of talk about Ubuntu upgrades, it's worth talking > about various backup strategies and options that are out there. If people > have other things they want to talk about, by all means! I've continued to > tinker with the LLM stuff and I'll have that laptop with me as well. > > After the meeting we'll head off for dinner to keep the conversation going. > > Later, > Tim. > > > > -- > I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their > constituents as "consumers". > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/NSTLC… >

July 11, 2024

Reminder!! WLUG meeting July 11th 2024 @7pm: Location: Technocopia!

by Tim Keller

Hey everybody! We've got a WLUG meeting this Thursday at technocopia! Time: 7pm Date: July 11th 2024 Location: 44 Portland St. Worcester MA Virtual Location: https://meet.jit.si/WlugMA Topic(s): SSH exploits There's been plenty of talk about Ubuntu upgrades, it's worth talking about various backup strategies and options that are out there. If people have other things they want to talk about, by all means! I've continued to tinker with the LLM stuff and I'll have that laptop with me as well. After the meeting we'll head off for dinner to keep the conversation going. Later, Tim. -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

July 9, 2024

Re: DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by Jon "maddog" Hall

Kevin, I found two articles that gave more technical information on the exact problem. First of all is this issue of the chip that was used to supply "serial control" of various devices. Many people might not think about it, but the keyboard and mice are also "serial devices" and used up two ports of the four port DC7085 gate array: These systems have four asynchronous serial lines that are provided by a > DC7085 gate array. Of the four serial lines, only the third line has the > required modem control signals to support a modem. A 4-pin MMJ connector is > provided for the keyboard line, a 7-pin DIN connector for mouse line, and > two 6-pin MMJ connectors for printer and modem lines. > > Now we put in who articles about what lines and pins were actually implemented: http://www.vanade.com/~blc/DS3100/pinouts.html https://www.tuhs.org/Usenet/comp.unix.ultrix/1991-May/005327.html Now it appears as if the DS 3000 had two "serial ports", one designated for a modem and one designated for a printer. Reading them brings back more of the "issues". One issue is that many Unix systems were not used just as a desktop system, but as "servers" too. A prime example of this was that a VMS Workstation was only allowed a single user to be logged on at one time. A multi-user license was not allowed for VMS Workstations through a dictum put forward by VAX product management. This, of course, was not what Unix people (and particularly Sun customers) would do. They might have a single person using the keyboard, mouse and main screen, but have several others logged onto the system over TCP/IP. *You can now skip ahead to more about the issue of serial ports, but you will be missing an interesting part of DEC history:* For years DEC refused to sell a multi-user license to workstation users. We even had a separate product called Ultrix-32w which was both the Ultrix-32 software plus the graphical server and came with a two user license (so either uucp or the network administrator) could log in at the same time as the user at the main keyboard. However, no other general user could log in at the same time. So the base Ultrix-32w came with that two-user license, and there was no "upgrade". Eventually I found this "rule" so damaging to Digital's Unix business that I decided to fight it. This "rule" might have made sense in the original days of 1 million instructions/second CPUs and unaccelerated graphics, but made NO sense with the much faster and accelerated graphics. We were being whipped senseless by Sun's marketing team. So I traded this "rule" down, and finally found that it had been generated by Jesse Lipcon, at that time a VP of workstations. I called him up and explained the situation. "Oh, I NEVER meant that to apply to UNIX Workstations...only VMS Workstations" said Jesse. "The Unix market is much different." So I held a meeting the next week. I picked the largest meeting room, expecting there would be much argument. I made a huge presentation about the whole issue and how much business we were missing. I pointed out that it was really up to the customer how many people or processes would be on that system, and DEC should not be limiting it artificially. The day of the meeting, the room was packed. There were people standing in the hallways. I stood up at the front, made the presentation, and asked if anyone had objections. No one raised their hand. "Then why are you here?" I asked. "We just came to see the fireworks." was the answer. "Then Digital now sells multi-user workstations." I declared. Of course things were a little more complicated than that, since there were changes to documentation, licensing, and a whole project around adding another graphics tube, keyboard and mouse to the hardware (the "Multi-User Caylith" project), but we charged ahead with the multi-user system. *Back to the serial ports:* So the VMS viewpoint of workstations you *might* have a printer and a modem hooked to the workstation, but more likely these would be attached to a server someplace to be shared with other workstation users. From a Unix standpoint, your workstation might ALSO be a server, and might have a printer and modem OR TWO MODEMS attached to the workstation, On either serial port they worked fairly well at lower transfer speeds with handshaking, but with higher speeds the handshaking tended to break down, especially if you hooked a second modem up to the "printer port". Another issue was the lack of the "CD" line, that tells the system the modem has lost connection, and requires that the software on the system recognize this through a timeout. This violated the concept of "DECstandard 052", a standard that was developed for modems hooked up to DEC's systems. Before the adoption of "DECstandard 052" in order to hook a modem up to a computer and a country's telephone lines you had to test every modem with every piece of hardware and every operating system in every country. This was not only a very expensive process, but took a long time after operating system releases. By developing DECstandard 052 the company made this a lot easier. The hardware and operating system groups only had to certify against DECstandard 052, and customers could then connect up any "standard" modems and know that they had the modem control signals to reliably interact with the modems of the country. The DECstation 3100 did not meet DECstandard 052: DEC STD 052-0 Operational Requirements for Serial Terminals and Computer Interfaces Operating as DTEs Connected to EIA RS-232-C or CCITT V.28 Modems - Part: EL-00052-00 - 1981 We've run both UUCP and SLIP on 3100s here; the modem-control "problems" > really aren't that serious a problem unless you are a high-security sort of > place. What is missing is the CD line that lets the modem tell the computer > that it has lost its connection. This means that when the other end (or the > phone company ;-) decides to hang up on you, the modem knows about it right > away, but the software has to use a timeout mechanism, because the modem's > attempt to say "Hey, we just lost the connection" does not get through. > > This allowed another call to arrive at the same port, and perhaps gain control of it without having to authenticate. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No. Using the printer port for a modem made the issue even worse. After all, you did not expect the printer to talk back to you at high speed. So now you know the REST of the story. md On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 1:32 PM Kevin Stratton <kstratton(a)fastmail.us> wrote: > I found this information interesting. > > The statement > > "To save a couple of pennies per system the > > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem > > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very > > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". > > has two different meanings (to me) in the context of this discussion. They > are: > > 1) RI and DCD are not implemented in hardware (Ring indicator and data > carrier detect) > > 2) A subset of RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR as well as RI and DCD are not > implemented in hardware. > > Does anyone want to clarify this in greater detail? Just curious. > > > On 7/6/2024 8:59 PM, Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG wrote: > > John: > > That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case > and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just > slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. > > > That is why I said "based". "Based" means that you did not have to > requalify a lot of the parts, that you could use a lot of the same Bill of > Materials....it does not mean you use exactly the same PCB. In the case > of the VAXstation/DECstation 3100 that meant we used the same serial io > chips and did not provide the hardware flow control. > > Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, >> though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since >> the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the >> DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the >> DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. > > > The server groups were different engineers, and the 5000s were designed > after the DECstation 3100/2100 series. > > Actually we MIGHT have caught the issue with the serial port for the > DECstation 3100/2100 because I brought up the issue in a hardware meeting > and was assured that it had been fixed because (and I can still hear this > person's voice in my head) the DECstation was a REAL UNIX MACHINE. I > should have found that person later and beaten him to death. > > David: > >> Actually, Cutler was already in trouble with management because of the >> Prism project. Prism was the first try at building a RISC machine (this >> was in the 1985-1986 time frame) and it was managed by Dave Cutler. >> Unfortunately, Dave was not a good administrator. He was doing a very bad >> job of managing the project and doing a very bad job of keeping management >> up to date on what was going on. Finally, management cancelled Prism and >> that is when they decided to go with the MIPS architecture. >> >> That is not what I experienced. I will not comment on Dave's skills as > an administrator or manager of the project. I do know that he had the > very ambitious project of doing the next-generation architecture and the > next generation operating system. He wanted a micro-kernel based system > with "personalities", one personality being VMS and the other personality > being Unix. One issue he had was when there was a clash between > personalities he would always favor VMS and therefore the Unix personality > would not be "perfect". I felt this was a mistake, since Unix people did > not tolerate things that did not smell like Unix. VMS people could have > been led over to a new environment over time since DEC controlled the path > with VMS. > > The reason I know this is that I personally interviewed with David Cutler > for the position of Unix Product Manager for his new operating system. > The interview was going fine until I tried to explain to Dave why his > strategy was wrong and he had to make the Unix side really compatible. > Then things got ugly, as David really did not like to be told he was wrong. > > Ken did have the bad habit of cutting off Dave's development money, then > giving it back to him again. I seem to remember that Dave was still going > full steam ahead while the PMAX was being developed, which is one reason > why he was caught so flat-footed when PMAX was announced. It was kept > REALLY SECRET. It probably did not help that Ken reportedly asked David > in a gleeful tone if the new chip would be as fast as the PMAX.... > > "Will it be THIS FAST, Dave?" was the reported question. > > It is also my belief that the Alpha chip came directly from Dave's work on > the PRISM, and that Windows NT came directly from David's work on the > microkernel with personalities. DEC never "decided to go with MIPS" > except as a stop-gap measure for Unix. If DEC had "decided to go with > MIPS" they would have ported VMS to it, and since that never happened, it > was obvious that DEC had not embraced MIPS. > > md > > > On Sat, Jul 6, 2024 at 3:27 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > >> >>>>> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: >> >> > The DECstation 3100 (aka the PMAX) was a system based on the same >> > motherboard as the VAXstation 3100, except with a MIPS processor. >> > It was the first time that Digital had built a system using another >> > company's chip architecture. >> >> That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case >> and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just >> slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. >> >> > We had a choice between supporting the MIPS R2000 chip as "big >> > endian" or "little endian". We chose to support "little endian" to >> > be compatible with PDP-11s, VAXen and Intel chips, rather than be >> > compatible with other manufacturers. This, in my mind, was very >> > important since it let us share data over NFS and give greater >> > compatibility with programs and libraries of applications already >> > running on other Unix-like systems such as Ultrix, BSD, etc. Sun >> > experienced this grief when they ported Solaris off the big endian >> > Motorola and SPARC chips to little endian Intel. >> >> > One of the few issues of the DECstation 3100 (and 2100, known as the >> > "PMIN" after that) was that the serial I/O port did not support >> > hardware handshaking. To save a couple of pennies per system the >> > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem >> > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very >> > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". What >> > they meant was that "very few VMS workstation users hooked a modem >> > up to their serial line", opting for DECnet to handle their >> > networking. Therefore the pins necessary to support hardware modem >> > control were missing from the DECstation product lines. >> >> Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, >> though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since >> the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the >> DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the >> DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. >> :-) >> >> I used to live and breathe the DEC options catalog, which was >> something like an inch thick book in purple (maybe blue? maybe changed >> each year?) with all the various options and configurations you could >> get. >> >> > Unix users, on the other hand, often had modems hooked up to their >> > workstation, to handle cu(1), uucp(1) and other serial line >> > protocols. We eventually got around this by better refining >> > software modem control, but it was painful. >> >> The EE department had Sun 1s at WPI, and they have the 9600 baud >> bitnet connection running of a VAX 11/780 at the time. >> >> > The proposal, design and release of the DECstation 3100 was a >> > top-secret project inside of DEC, kept secret from even many people >> > in the Digital Unix group in Nashua, New Hampshire. The >> > development of the system was done in Palo Alto's WorkStation >> > Engineering group and the software engineering was done in the >> > Western Software Labs in Palo Alto, albeit by taking key engineers >> > from the Nashua facility and transplanting them temporarily to Palo >> > Alto. >> >> > The implementation was kept so secret that it caught Dave Cutler, >> > then working on DEC's next-generation operating system and chips, by >> > surprise when it debuted at a Board Meeting in Maynard, >> > Massachusetts. Shortly after that board meeting Mr. Cutler left >> > Digital and moved (with some of his team) to Microsoft. >> >> Do you think that was just the straw that broke the camel's back? >> >> > The DECstations only were manufactured for a couple of years, as the >> > DEC Alpha processor replaced MIPS in Digital's lineup. Although >> > originally promised that OSF/1 would be ported to the DECstation >> > line, this port was dropped due to realizing that there would never >> > be an application base to support the customers of a DECstation >> > OSF/1 port. It was better for ISVs and customers to maintain the >> > Ultrix base for the DECstations than to split the base into Ultrix >> > and OSF/1. >> >> Yeah, we had a ton of DECstations and a bunch of various early model >> Alphas at WPI which we beta tested for DEC. The AS2100 with 8 DEC >> StorageWorks canisters (which Netapp used on their early F220, F330, >> F740 NAS systems) holding 3.5" disks, dual ported, hot-swapable. Nice >> gear. >> >> The move from Ultrix to DEC OSF/1 was a bit painful, but not terrible >> as I recall, but I'm sure I've blocked all the bad memories from then. >> >> Thanks for the walk down memory lane! >> John >> > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/UUCPQ… > >

July 7, 2024

Re: DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by Kevin Stratton

I found this information interesting. The statement "To save a couple of pennies per system the > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". has two different meanings (to me) in the context of this discussion. They are: 1) RI and DCD are not implemented in hardware (Ring indicator and data carrier detect) 2) A subset of RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR as well as RI and DCD are not implemented in hardware. Does anyone want to clarify this in greater detail? Just curious. On 7/6/2024 8:59 PM, Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG wrote: > John: > > That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case > and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just > slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. > > > That is why I said "based". "Based" means that you did not have to > requalify a lot of the parts, that you could use a lot of the same > Bill of Materials....it does not mean you use exactly the same PCB. > In the case of the VAXstation/DECstation 3100 that meant we used the > same serial io chips and did not provide the hardware flow control. > > Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, > though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since > the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the > DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the > DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. > > > The server groups were different engineers, and the 5000s were > designed after the DECstation 3100/2100 series. > > Actually we MIGHT have caught the issue with the serial port for the > DECstation 3100/2100 because I brought up the issue in a hardware > meeting and was assured that it had been fixed because (and I can > still hear this person's voice in my head) the DECstation was a REAL > UNIX MACHINE. I should have found that person later and beaten him > to death. > > David: > > Actually, Cutler was already in trouble with management because of > the Prism project. Prism was the first try at building a RISC > machine (this was in the 1985-1986 time frame) and it was managed > by Dave Cutler. Unfortunately, Dave was not a good administrator. > He was doing a very bad job of managing the project and doing a > very bad job of keeping management up to date on what was going > on. Finally, management cancelled Prism and that is when they > decided to go with the MIPS architecture. > > That is not what I experienced. I will not comment on Dave's skills > as an administrator or manager of the project. I do know that he had > the very ambitious project of doing the next-generation architecture > and the next generation operating system. He wanted a micro-kernel > based system with "personalities", one personality being VMS and the > other personality being Unix. One issue he had was when there was a > clash between personalities he would always favor VMS and therefore > the Unix personality would not be "perfect". I felt this was a > mistake, since Unix people did not tolerate things that did not smell > like Unix. VMS people could have been led over to a new environment > over time since DEC controlled the path with VMS. > > The reason I know this is that I personally interviewed with David > Cutler for the position of Unix Product Manager for his new operating > system. The interview was going fine until I tried to explain to > Dave why his strategy was wrong and he had to make the Unix side > really compatible. Then things got ugly, as David really did not like > to be told he was wrong. > > Ken did have the bad habit of cutting off Dave's development money, > then giving it back to him again. I seem to remember that Dave was > still going full steam ahead while the PMAX was being developed, which > is one reason why he was caught so flat-footed when PMAX was > announced. It was kept REALLY SECRET. It probably did not help > that Ken reportedly asked David in a gleeful tone if the new chip > would be as fast as the PMAX.... > > "Will it be THIS FAST, Dave?" was the reported question. > > It is also my belief that the Alpha chip came directly from Dave's > work on the PRISM, and that Windows NT came directly from David's work > on the microkernel with personalities. DEC never "decided to go > with MIPS" except as a stop-gap measure for Unix. If DEC had > "decided to go with MIPS" they would have ported VMS to it, and since > that never happened, it was obvious that DEC had not embraced MIPS. > > md > > > On Sat, Jul 6, 2024 at 3:27 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > > >>>>> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> > writes: > > > The DECstation 3100 (aka the PMAX) was a system based on the same > > motherboard as the VAXstation 3100, except with a MIPS processor. > > It was the first time that Digital had built a system using another > > company's chip architecture. > > That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case > and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just > slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. > > > We had a choice between supporting the MIPS R2000 chip as "big > > endian" or "little endian". We chose to support "little endian" to > > be compatible with PDP-11s, VAXen and Intel chips, rather than be > > compatible with other manufacturers. This, in my mind, was very > > important since it let us share data over NFS and give greater > > compatibility with programs and libraries of applications already > > running on other Unix-like systems such as Ultrix, BSD, etc. Sun > > experienced this grief when they ported Solaris off the big endian > > Motorola and SPARC chips to little endian Intel. > > > One of the few issues of the DECstation 3100 (and 2100, known as the > > "PMIN" after that) was that the serial I/O port did not support > > hardware handshaking. To save a couple of pennies per system the > > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem > > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very > > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". What > > they meant was that "very few VMS workstation users hooked a modem > > up to their serial line", opting for DECnet to handle their > > networking. Therefore the pins necessary to support hardware modem > > control were missing from the DECstation product lines. > > Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, > though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since > the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the > DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the > DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. > :-) > > I used to live and breathe the DEC options catalog, which was > something like an inch thick book in purple (maybe blue? maybe changed > each year?) with all the various options and configurations you could > get. > > > Unix users, on the other hand, often had modems hooked up to their > > workstation, to handle cu(1), uucp(1) and other serial line > > protocols. We eventually got around this by better refining > > software modem control, but it was painful. > > The EE department had Sun 1s at WPI, and they have the 9600 baud > bitnet connection running of a VAX 11/780 at the time. > > > The proposal, design and release of the DECstation 3100 was a > > top-secret project inside of DEC, kept secret from even many people > > in the Digital Unix group in Nashua, New Hampshire. The > > development of the system was done in Palo Alto's WorkStation > > Engineering group and the software engineering was done in the > > Western Software Labs in Palo Alto, albeit by taking key engineers > > from the Nashua facility and transplanting them temporarily to Palo > > Alto. > > > The implementation was kept so secret that it caught Dave Cutler, > > then working on DEC's next-generation operating system and chips, by > > surprise when it debuted at a Board Meeting in Maynard, > > Massachusetts. Shortly after that board meeting Mr. Cutler left > > Digital and moved (with some of his team) to Microsoft. > > Do you think that was just the straw that broke the camel's back? > > > The DECstations only were manufactured for a couple of years, as the > > DEC Alpha processor replaced MIPS in Digital's lineup. Although > > originally promised that OSF/1 would be ported to the DECstation > > line, this port was dropped due to realizing that there would never > > be an application base to support the customers of a DECstation > > OSF/1 port. It was better for ISVs and customers to maintain the > > Ultrix base for the DECstations than to split the base into Ultrix > > and OSF/1. > > Yeah, we had a ton of DECstations and a bunch of various early model > Alphas at WPI which we beta tested for DEC. The AS2100 with 8 DEC > StorageWorks canisters (which Netapp used on their early F220, F330, > F740 NAS systems) holding 3.5" disks, dual ported, hot-swapable. Nice > gear. > > The move from Ultrix to DEC OSF/1 was a bit painful, but not terrible > as I recall, but I'm sure I've blocked all the bad memories from then. > > Thanks for the walk down memory lane! > John > > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list --wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email towlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account:https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings:https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive:https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org…

July 7, 2024

Re: DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by Jon "maddog" Hall

John: That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. That is why I said "based". "Based" means that you did not have to requalify a lot of the parts, that you could use a lot of the same Bill of Materials....it does not mean you use exactly the same PCB. In the case of the VAXstation/DECstation 3100 that meant we used the same serial io chips and did not provide the hardware flow control. Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, > though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since > the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the > DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the > DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. The server groups were different engineers, and the 5000s were designed after the DECstation 3100/2100 series. Actually we MIGHT have caught the issue with the serial port for the DECstation 3100/2100 because I brought up the issue in a hardware meeting and was assured that it had been fixed because (and I can still hear this person's voice in my head) the DECstation was a REAL UNIX MACHINE. I should have found that person later and beaten him to death. David: > Actually, Cutler was already in trouble with management because of the > Prism project. Prism was the first try at building a RISC machine (this > was in the 1985-1986 time frame) and it was managed by Dave Cutler. > Unfortunately, Dave was not a good administrator. He was doing a very bad > job of managing the project and doing a very bad job of keeping management > up to date on what was going on. Finally, management cancelled Prism and > that is when they decided to go with the MIPS architecture. > > That is not what I experienced. I will not comment on Dave's skills as an administrator or manager of the project. I do know that he had the very ambitious project of doing the next-generation architecture and the next generation operating system. He wanted a micro-kernel based system with "personalities", one personality being VMS and the other personality being Unix. One issue he had was when there was a clash between personalities he would always favor VMS and therefore the Unix personality would not be "perfect". I felt this was a mistake, since Unix people did not tolerate things that did not smell like Unix. VMS people could have been led over to a new environment over time since DEC controlled the path with VMS. The reason I know this is that I personally interviewed with David Cutler for the position of Unix Product Manager for his new operating system. The interview was going fine until I tried to explain to Dave why his strategy was wrong and he had to make the Unix side really compatible. Then things got ugly, as David really did not like to be told he was wrong. Ken did have the bad habit of cutting off Dave's development money, then giving it back to him again. I seem to remember that Dave was still going full steam ahead while the PMAX was being developed, which is one reason why he was caught so flat-footed when PMAX was announced. It was kept REALLY SECRET. It probably did not help that Ken reportedly asked David in a gleeful tone if the new chip would be as fast as the PMAX.... "Will it be THIS FAST, Dave?" was the reported question. It is also my belief that the Alpha chip came directly from Dave's work on the PRISM, and that Windows NT came directly from David's work on the microkernel with personalities. DEC never "decided to go with MIPS" except as a stop-gap measure for Unix. If DEC had "decided to go with MIPS" they would have ported VMS to it, and since that never happened, it was obvious that DEC had not embraced MIPS. md On Sat, Jul 6, 2024 at 3:27 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > >>>>> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > > > The DECstation 3100 (aka the PMAX) was a system based on the same > > motherboard as the VAXstation 3100, except with a MIPS processor. > > It was the first time that Digital had built a system using another > > company's chip architecture. > > That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case > and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just > slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. > > > We had a choice between supporting the MIPS R2000 chip as "big > > endian" or "little endian". We chose to support "little endian" to > > be compatible with PDP-11s, VAXen and Intel chips, rather than be > > compatible with other manufacturers. This, in my mind, was very > > important since it let us share data over NFS and give greater > > compatibility with programs and libraries of applications already > > running on other Unix-like systems such as Ultrix, BSD, etc. Sun > > experienced this grief when they ported Solaris off the big endian > > Motorola and SPARC chips to little endian Intel. > > > One of the few issues of the DECstation 3100 (and 2100, known as the > > "PMIN" after that) was that the serial I/O port did not support > > hardware handshaking. To save a couple of pennies per system the > > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem > > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very > > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". What > > they meant was that "very few VMS workstation users hooked a modem > > up to their serial line", opting for DECnet to handle their > > networking. Therefore the pins necessary to support hardware modem > > control were missing from the DECstation product lines. > > Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, > though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since > the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the > DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the > DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. > :-) > > I used to live and breathe the DEC options catalog, which was > something like an inch thick book in purple (maybe blue? maybe changed > each year?) with all the various options and configurations you could > get. > > > Unix users, on the other hand, often had modems hooked up to their > > workstation, to handle cu(1), uucp(1) and other serial line > > protocols. We eventually got around this by better refining > > software modem control, but it was painful. > > The EE department had Sun 1s at WPI, and they have the 9600 baud > bitnet connection running of a VAX 11/780 at the time. > > > The proposal, design and release of the DECstation 3100 was a > > top-secret project inside of DEC, kept secret from even many people > > in the Digital Unix group in Nashua, New Hampshire. The > > development of the system was done in Palo Alto's WorkStation > > Engineering group and the software engineering was done in the > > Western Software Labs in Palo Alto, albeit by taking key engineers > > from the Nashua facility and transplanting them temporarily to Palo > > Alto. > > > The implementation was kept so secret that it caught Dave Cutler, > > then working on DEC's next-generation operating system and chips, by > > surprise when it debuted at a Board Meeting in Maynard, > > Massachusetts. Shortly after that board meeting Mr. Cutler left > > Digital and moved (with some of his team) to Microsoft. > > Do you think that was just the straw that broke the camel's back? > > > The DECstations only were manufactured for a couple of years, as the > > DEC Alpha processor replaced MIPS in Digital's lineup. Although > > originally promised that OSF/1 would be ported to the DECstation > > line, this port was dropped due to realizing that there would never > > be an application base to support the customers of a DECstation > > OSF/1 port. It was better for ISVs and customers to maintain the > > Ultrix base for the DECstations than to split the base into Ultrix > > and OSF/1. > > Yeah, we had a ton of DECstations and a bunch of various early model > Alphas at WPI which we beta tested for DEC. The AS2100 with 8 DEC > StorageWorks canisters (which Netapp used on their early F220, F330, > F740 NAS systems) holding 3.5" disks, dual ported, hot-swapable. Nice > gear. > > The move from Ultrix to DEC OSF/1 was a bit painful, but not terrible > as I recall, but I'm sure I've blocked all the bad memories from then. > > Thanks for the walk down memory lane! > John >

July 7, 2024

Re: DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by Michael Voorhis

On 7/6/24 3:27 PM, John Stoffel via WLUG wrote: > Yeah, we had a ton of DECstations and a bunch of various early model > Alphas at WPI which we beta tested for DEC. I have one of these CPUs in my office. --MCV.

July 6, 2024

Re: DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by David Glaser

>> The implementation was kept so secret that it caught Dave Cutler, >> then working on DEC's next-generation operating system and chips, by >> surprise when it debuted at a Board Meeting in Maynard, >> Massachusetts. Shortly after that board meeting Mr. Cutler left >> Digital and moved (with some of his team) to Microsoft. > Do you think that was just the straw that broke the camel's back? > Actually, Cutler was already in trouble with management because of the Prism project. Prism was the first try at building a RISC machine (this was in the 1985-1986 time frame) and it was managed by Dave Cutler. Unfortunately, Dave was not a good administrator. He was doing a very bad job of managing the project and doing a very bad job of keeping management up to date on what was going on. Finally, management cancelled Prism and that is when they decided to go with the MIPS architecture. Dave was trying to rehabilitate himself but the DECStation 3100 basically yanked the rug from under him -- among other things. The adoption of the MIPS architecture caused a lot of grumbling and unhappiness with the troops because of the NIH factor. This in turn allowed Bob Palmer and others to push for a new try at a RISC architecture and thus the Alpha was born. Unfortunately, Alpha took up a lot of resources (hardware design, software, semiconductor) that should have been used elsewhere - e.g., Concentrate of MIPS for high end and intel or motorola for the low end, Ultrix instead of OSF, etc. The Hudson facility (along with disk drives) was a real money sink. Bob Palmer came from the manufacturing side and I think he loathed dismantling DECs vertical integration. When the board of directors told him to preserve shareholder equity, he then started to sell off pieces of the company which started dismantling the vertical integration. But then it was too late. -David

July 6, 2024

Re: DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > The DECstation 3100 (aka the PMAX) was a system based on the same > motherboard as the VAXstation 3100, except with a MIPS processor. > It was the first time that Digital had built a system using another > company's chip architecture. That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. > We had a choice between supporting the MIPS R2000 chip as "big > endian" or "little endian". We chose to support "little endian" to > be compatible with PDP-11s, VAXen and Intel chips, rather than be > compatible with other manufacturers. This, in my mind, was very > important since it let us share data over NFS and give greater > compatibility with programs and libraries of applications already > running on other Unix-like systems such as Ultrix, BSD, etc. Sun > experienced this grief when they ported Solaris off the big endian > Motorola and SPARC chips to little endian Intel. > One of the few issues of the DECstation 3100 (and 2100, known as the > "PMIN" after that) was that the serial I/O port did not support > hardware handshaking. To save a couple of pennies per system the > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". What > they meant was that "very few VMS workstation users hooked a modem > up to their serial line", opting for DECnet to handle their > networking. Therefore the pins necessary to support hardware modem > control were missing from the DECstation product lines. Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. :-) I used to live and breathe the DEC options catalog, which was something like an inch thick book in purple (maybe blue? maybe changed each year?) with all the various options and configurations you could get. > Unix users, on the other hand, often had modems hooked up to their > workstation, to handle cu(1), uucp(1) and other serial line > protocols. We eventually got around this by better refining > software modem control, but it was painful. The EE department had Sun 1s at WPI, and they have the 9600 baud bitnet connection running of a VAX 11/780 at the time. > The proposal, design and release of the DECstation 3100 was a > top-secret project inside of DEC, kept secret from even many people > in the Digital Unix group in Nashua, New Hampshire. The > development of the system was done in Palo Alto's WorkStation > Engineering group and the software engineering was done in the > Western Software Labs in Palo Alto, albeit by taking key engineers > from the Nashua facility and transplanting them temporarily to Palo > Alto. > The implementation was kept so secret that it caught Dave Cutler, > then working on DEC's next-generation operating system and chips, by > surprise when it debuted at a Board Meeting in Maynard, > Massachusetts. Shortly after that board meeting Mr. Cutler left > Digital and moved (with some of his team) to Microsoft. Do you think that was just the straw that broke the camel's back? > The DECstations only were manufactured for a couple of years, as the > DEC Alpha processor replaced MIPS in Digital's lineup. Although > originally promised that OSF/1 would be ported to the DECstation > line, this port was dropped due to realizing that there would never > be an application base to support the customers of a DECstation > OSF/1 port. It was better for ISVs and customers to maintain the > Ultrix base for the DECstations than to split the base into Ultrix > and OSF/1. Yeah, we had a ton of DECstations and a bunch of various early model Alphas at WPI which we beta tested for DEC. The AS2100 with 8 DEC StorageWorks canisters (which Netapp used on their early F220, F330, F740 NAS systems) holding 3.5" disks, dual ported, hot-swapable. Nice gear. The move from Ultrix to DEC OSF/1 was a bit painful, but not terrible as I recall, but I'm sure I've blocked all the bad memories from then. Thanks for the walk down memory lane! John

July 6, 2024

You-Do-It Founder

by gmcaplan＠gmcaplan.org

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/bostonglobe/name/john-ahigian-obituary…

July 6, 2024

Re: DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by Jon "maddog" Hall

The DECstation 3100 (aka the PMAX) was a system based on the same motherboard as the VAXstation 3100, except with a MIPS processor. It was the first time that Digital had built a system using another company's chip architecture. We had a choice between supporting the MIPS R2000 chip as "big endian" or "little endian". We chose to support "little endian" to be compatible with PDP-11s, VAXen and Intel chips, rather than be compatible with other manufacturers. This, in my mind, was very important since it let us share data over NFS and give greater compatibility with programs and libraries of applications already running on other Unix-like systems such as Ultrix, BSD, etc. Sun experienced this grief when they ported Solaris off the big endian Motorola and SPARC chips to little endian Intel. One of the few issues of the DECstation 3100 (and 2100, known as the "PMIN" after that) was that the serial I/O port did not support hardware handshaking. To save a couple of pennies per system the VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". What they meant was that "very few VMS workstation users hooked a modem up to their serial line", opting for DECnet to handle their networking. Therefore the pins necessary to support hardware modem control were missing from the DECstation product lines. Unix users, on the other hand, often had modems hooked up to their workstation, to handle cu(1), uucp(1) and other serial line protocols. We eventually got around this by better refining software modem control, but it was painful. The proposal, design and release of the DECstation 3100 was a top-secret project inside of DEC, kept secret from even many people in the Digital Unix group in Nashua, New Hampshire. The development of the system was done in Palo Alto's WorkStation Engineering group and the software engineering was done in the Western Software Labs in Palo Alto, albeit by taking key engineers from the Nashua facility and transplanting them temporarily to Palo Alto. The implementation was kept so secret that it caught Dave Cutler, then working on DEC's next-generation operating system and chips, by surprise when it debuted at a Board Meeting in Maynard, Massachusetts. Shortly after that board meeting Mr. Cutler left Digital and moved (with some of his team) to Microsoft. The DECstations only were manufactured for a couple of years, as the DEC Alpha processor replaced MIPS in Digital's lineup. Although originally promised that OSF/1 would be ported to the DECstation line, this port was dropped due to realizing that there would never be an application base to support the customers of a DECstation OSF/1 port. It was better for ISVs and customers to maintain the Ultrix base for the DECstations than to split the base into Ultrix and OSF/1. md On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > > My first real Unix workstation, reduced. > > https://github.com/rscott2049/DECstation2040 > > This brings back memories. I think they had 8mb of RAM and 525Mb > 5 1/4" full height hard drives in external SCSI enclosures way back in > the late 80s.... > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/W47HD… >

July 5, 2024

DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by John Stoffel

My first real Unix workstation, reduced. https://github.com/rscott2049/DECstation2040 This brings back memories. I think they had 8mb of RAM and 525Mb 5 1/4" full height hard drives in external SCSI enclosures way back in the late 80s....

July 5, 2024

Re: You-Do-It Electronics is dead, long live You-Do-It Electronics

by Tim Keller

Sadly I only went to You Do it once and it was really amazing. It was before the pandemic in their full glory. My co-worker is a big ham guy and he needed some stuff to repair a couple radios as well as some connectors for his various antennas. He was in there all the time and immediately was greeted by a sales guy who dove right into a deep conversation about dipole yaggi's, etc. I wandered the aisles, just amazed. They had a pretty decent 3d printing corner as well. Sadly, I think the market for building your own electronics is continuously shrinking. Tim. On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 2:46 PM John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > >>>>> "gmcaplan---" == gmcaplan--- via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > > They're gone already, it was pretty quick, I missed being able to make > a trip too. > > > This is terrible news! Have they closed already? I was planning to > > go there on Tuesday (July 2) when I have a medical appt. in > > Newton. They were probably destroyed by the Web, BUT their location > > was not ideal. The traffic in that area was horrible. > > > On 2024-06-28 4:53 pm, Jeff Moyer via WLUG wrote: > >> Hi, David, > >> > >> David Glaser via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > >> > >>> You-Do-It Electronics went out of business. It was a very nice > >>> resource. Does anyone know of a similar electronics store that is > >>> within a 1 hour drive of Woosta? > >> > >> That is sad. I don't know of another store that is as big as > >> You-Do-It, but there is Electronics Plus in Littleton: > >> http://www.electronicsplus.com/ > >> > >> They are more like a radioshack in terms of size and inventory. > >> > >> -Jeff > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > >> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > >> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > >> Change Settings: > >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > >> Web Forum/Archive: > >> > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/WSZ6C… > > _______________________________________________ > > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/DPXGK… > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/KWIQU… > -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

July 2, 2024

Re: Keeping your package manager happy in Ubuntu and Debian -- from prior upgrade discussion

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Voorhis via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: Mike puts out some great info, but I just want to make a single comment here, because my main system at home has gone from Debian 9 (I think!) to 10, 11 and now 12. Lots of cruft has built up over the years, and this was a great set of commands to help clean stuff out. > Does your machine harbor software not attached to any software repo? > (these are AKA "Obsolete packages") Learn the shocking truth: > aptitude show '~o' | grep Package | awk '{print $2}' | sort | fmt This really needs to be: aptitude show '~o' | grep Package: | awk '{print $2}' | sort | fmt because sometimes aptitude shows package info across two or more lines.

July 2, 2024

Re: You-Do-It Electronics is dead, long live You-Do-It Electronics

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "gmcaplan---" == gmcaplan--- via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: They're gone already, it was pretty quick, I missed being able to make a trip too. > This is terrible news! Have they closed already? I was planning to > go there on Tuesday (July 2) when I have a medical appt. in > Newton. They were probably destroyed by the Web, BUT their location > was not ideal. The traffic in that area was horrible. > On 2024-06-28 4:53 pm, Jeff Moyer via WLUG wrote: >> Hi, David, >> >> David Glaser via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: >> >>> You-Do-It Electronics went out of business. It was a very nice >>> resource. Does anyone know of a similar electronics store that is >>> within a 1 hour drive of Woosta? >> >> That is sad. I don't know of another store that is as big as >> You-Do-It, but there is Electronics Plus in Littleton: >> http://www.electronicsplus.com/ >> >> They are more like a radioshack in terms of size and inventory. >> >> -Jeff >> >> _______________________________________________ >> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >> Change Settings: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >> Web Forum/Archive: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/WSZ6C… > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/DPXGK…

July 2, 2024

Keeping your package manager happy in Ubuntu and Debian -- from prior upgrade discussion

by Michael Voorhis

On 7/1/24 9:34 PM, gmcaplan--- via WLUG wrote: > John, Thank you for your help with my recent Linux problems. Sorry I > did not say anything sooner. I'm coming late to this discussion; sorry about that. Re: "old packages from a previous upgrade" ... in Ubuntu, the "do-release-upgrade" script is supposed to clear those out. But if do-release-upgrade crashes out, people can get lost as they don't know how to duke it out with the package manager. My standard "update the software" in Ubuntu/Debian looks for deletable and orphan packages specifically. Nuking orphan stuff and removing old cruft beforehand, is THE WAY to make your upgrades work better. The only other source of complication is old additional software repos in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/[...] which are NOT supported in the OS release you're upgrading INTO. Does your package manager want you to delete stuff? dpkg -l | grep '^r' | awk '{print $2}' | sort | fmt ... this command should return no output if your system is clean. Does your machine harbor software not attached to any software repo? (these are AKA "Obsolete packages") Learn the shocking truth: aptitude show '~o' | grep Package | awk '{print $2}' | sort | fmt ... this command should also produce no output on a happy machine, other than perhaps one-shot .deb files installed from downloads (i.e., if you download the zoom client by hand and install that without using a repo, etc). The more cruft, the worse your major-version-upgrade experience will be. The upgrade is performed entirely by the package manager, so that part of your OS needs to be happy before you can start an upgrade with confidence. --MCV.

July 2, 2024

Re: Seeking Ubuntu Help

by gmcaplan＠gmcaplan.org

John, Thank you for your help with my recent Linux problems. Sorry I did not say anything sooner. George Caplan On 2024-06-26 9:39 pm, John Stoffel via WLUG wrote: >>>>>> "gmcaplan---" == gmcaplan--- via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> >>>>>> writes: > >> I hope one or more of you can help me. >> I upgraded today from Ubuntu 18.04 LTS to 20.04 LTS on my desktop >> computer. (I know I am way behind, but I can do this only in the >> summer >> etc., etc.) >> I used the built-in Ubuntu update feature. >> It worked better than I expected and took less that two hours. The >> data >> backups I did ahead of time took much longer. > >> Anyway, 20.04 is running but I have two problems. > >> Number One: > >> Many terminal commands give this message: >> Errors were encountered while processing: >> linux-image-4.15.0-212-generic >> Processing was halted because there were too many errors. >> W: Can not find PkgVer for 'linux-image-extra-4.4.0-122-generic' >> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) > >> In particular, here is what happens when I try to remove 4.4.0-212. > >> sudo apt-get --purge remove linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic >> Reading package lists... Done >> Building dependency tree >> Reading state information... Done >> E: Unable to locate package linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic >> E: Couldn't find any package by glob >> 'linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic' >> E: Couldn't find any package by regex >> 'linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic' > > This is funky. I suspect that you have an old package from a previous > upgrade, did you come from Ubuntu 16.x or earlier on this same system? > > You might try to run the following, all as root or with sudo: > > apt clean > apt update > apt install --fix-missing > apt upgrade > > and see what each command says. So please share the full and complete > outputs. You might also be able to do: > > apt purge linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic > > But maybe you can share the output of: > > dpkg-query -l | grep linux-image-extra > > and see if that package is listed and share with us the full details? >> From the looks of it, you DID do a previous upgrade from Ubuntu 16.0 > at some point, but didn't didn't do: > > apt autoremove > > once you finished the ugprade to 18.x, but I think we can make this > work with a bit of finagling. > > Also, please look at these instructions, and once we get this fixed, > I'm going to suggest you go right to 22.04 LTS, and then just stick > with LTS versions if you can't upgrade very often. > > https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades > > But the last thing to try, if none of the above works might be to do: > > dpkg --purge --force-remove-reinstreq > linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic > > and see if _that_ does the trick. > > John > > > > >> Number Two: > >> I cannot get audio out of Line Out to my speakers. And I cannot get >> audio into Line In to make recordings. I *do* get audio from the audio >> output on my HDMI monitor. This might be related to the need for >> codecs, >> but when I try various terminal commands to load more codecs, I get >> problem Number 1 ! > > Yeah, let's fix your apt-repo, which seems to be in a wierd state. But > maybe you can also post what your hardware is, including the output > of: > > lspci > >> Some of what I read on the Web mentions tex files that could cause >> Number 1. I do have TeXstudio installed. I tried to uninstall >> texstudio and texlive, but when I do that, I get the message ant >> Number One! > > Yeah, I doubt that's the problem, but we'll try to help here. > > Do you have any special stuff in /etc/apt/sources.list or do you have > any extra file in > > ls /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ > > and what I'd probably do is remove all extra sources in there for now, > just to make sure things are ok. > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/Y23FW…

July 2, 2024

Re: You-Do-It Electronics is dead, long live You-Do-It Electronics

by joel d

Was last in you-do-it May 17 when travels took me nearby. Store was about 80 percent empty then. Sign of the times. Going forward we all plan weeks ahead with free shipping things from China. Joel On June 29, 2024 10:30:27 AM David Glaser via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > June 12th was the last day. > > -David > > On 6/29/2024 9:38 AM, gmcaplan--- via WLUG wrote: >> This is terrible news! Have they closed already? >> I was planning to go there on Tuesday (July 2) when I have a medical >> appt. in Newton. They were probably destroyed by the Web, BUT their >> location was not ideal. The traffic in that area was horrible. >> >> On 2024-06-28 4:53 pm, Jeff Moyer via WLUG wrote: >>> Hi, David, >>> >>> David Glaser via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: >>> >>>> You-Do-It Electronics went out of business. It was a very nice >>>> resource. Does anyone know of a similar electronics store that is >>>> within a 1 hour drive of Woosta? >>> >>> That is sad. I don't know of another store that is as big as >>> You-Do-It, but there is Electronics Plus in Littleton: >>> http://www.electronicsplus.com/ >>> >>> They are more like a radioshack in terms of size and inventory. >>> >>> -Jeff >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >>> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >>> Change Settings: >>> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >>> Web Forum/Archive: >>> https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/WSZ6C… >> _______________________________________________ >> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >> Change Settings: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >> Web Forum/Archive: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/DPXGK… > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/Y3SIV…

June 29, 2024

Re: You-Do-It Electronics is dead, long live You-Do-It Electronics

by David Glaser

Hi Jeff, June 12th was the last day. -David On 6/29/2024 9:38 AM, gmcaplan--- via WLUG wrote: > This is terrible news! Have they closed already? > I was planning to go there on Tuesday (July 2) when I have a medical > appt. in Newton. They were probably destroyed by the Web, BUT their > location was not ideal. The traffic in that area was horrible. > > On 2024-06-28 4:53 pm, Jeff Moyer via WLUG wrote: >> Hi, David, >> >> David Glaser via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: >> >>> You-Do-It Electronics went out of business. It was a very nice >>> resource. Does anyone know of a similar electronics store that is >>> within a 1 hour drive of Woosta? >> >> That is sad. I don't know of another store that is as big as >> You-Do-It, but there is Electronics Plus in Littleton: >> http://www.electronicsplus.com/ >> >> They are more like a radioshack in terms of size and inventory. >> >> -Jeff >> >> _______________________________________________ >> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >> Change Settings: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >> Web Forum/Archive: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/WSZ6C… > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/DPXGK…

June 29, 2024

Re: You-Do-It Electronics is dead, long live You-Do-It Electronics

by gmcaplan＠gmcaplan.org

This is terrible news! Have they closed already? I was planning to go there on Tuesday (July 2) when I have a medical appt. in Newton. They were probably destroyed by the Web, BUT their location was not ideal. The traffic in that area was horrible. On 2024-06-28 4:53 pm, Jeff Moyer via WLUG wrote: > Hi, David, > > David Glaser via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > >> You-Do-It Electronics went out of business. It was a very nice >> resource. Does anyone know of a similar electronics store that is >> within a 1 hour drive of Woosta? > > That is sad. I don't know of another store that is as big as > You-Do-It, but there is Electronics Plus in Littleton: > http://www.electronicsplus.com/ > > They are more like a radioshack in terms of size and inventory. > > -Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/WSZ6C…

June 29, 2024

Re: You-Do-It Electronics is dead, long live You-Do-It Electronics

by John Stoffel

I’ll second electronics plus as well, but not sure how much long Fran will keep it running… Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 28, 2024, at 4:01 PM, Jeff Moyer via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > > Hi, David, > > David Glaser via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > >> You-Do-It Electronics went out of business. It was a very nice >> resource. Does anyone know of a similar electronics store that is >> within a 1 hour drive of Woosta? > > That is sad. I don't know of another store that is as big as > You-Do-It, but there is Electronics Plus in Littleton: > http://www.electronicsplus.com/ > > They are more like a radioshack in terms of size and inventory. > > -Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/WSZ6C…

June 28, 2024

Re: You-Do-It Electronics is dead, long live You-Do-It Electronics

by Jeff Moyer

Hi, David, David Glaser via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > You-Do-It Electronics went out of business. It was a very nice > resource. Does anyone know of a similar electronics store that is > within a 1 hour drive of Woosta? That is sad. I don't know of another store that is as big as You-Do-It, but there is Electronics Plus in Littleton: http://www.electronicsplus.com/ They are more like a radioshack in terms of size and inventory. -Jeff

June 28, 2024

You-Do-It Electronics is dead, long live You-Do-It Electronics

by David Glaser

You-Do-It Electronics went out of business. It was a very nice resource. Does anyone know of a similar electronics store that is within a 1 hour drive of Woosta? -David

June 28, 2024

Problems Solved

by gmcaplan＠gmcaplan.org

I used grub-customizer to remove image 212 from grub. hat solved the error problem. Then a removed and re-installed alsa-base and pulseaudio. Now sound works.

June 27, 2024

Re: Seeking Ubuntu Help

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "gmcaplan---" == gmcaplan--- via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > I hope one or more of you can help me. > I upgraded today from Ubuntu 18.04 LTS to 20.04 LTS on my desktop > computer. (I know I am way behind, but I can do this only in the summer > etc., etc.) > I used the built-in Ubuntu update feature. > It worked better than I expected and took less that two hours. The data > backups I did ahead of time took much longer. > Anyway, 20.04 is running but I have two problems. > Number One: > Many terminal commands give this message: > Errors were encountered while processing: > linux-image-4.15.0-212-generic > Processing was halted because there were too many errors. > W: Can not find PkgVer for 'linux-image-extra-4.4.0-122-generic' > E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) > In particular, here is what happens when I try to remove 4.4.0-212. > sudo apt-get --purge remove linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic > Reading package lists... Done > Building dependency tree > Reading state information... Done > E: Unable to locate package linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic > E: Couldn't find any package by glob > 'linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic' > E: Couldn't find any package by regex > 'linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic' This is funky. I suspect that you have an old package from a previous upgrade, did you come from Ubuntu 16.x or earlier on this same system? You might try to run the following, all as root or with sudo: apt clean apt update apt install --fix-missing apt upgrade and see what each command says. So please share the full and complete outputs. You might also be able to do: apt purge linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic But maybe you can share the output of: dpkg-query -l | grep linux-image-extra and see if that package is listed and share with us the full details? From the looks of it, you DID do a previous upgrade from Ubuntu 16.0 at some point, but didn't didn't do: apt autoremove once you finished the ugprade to 18.x, but I think we can make this work with a bit of finagling. Also, please look at these instructions, and once we get this fixed, I'm going to suggest you go right to 22.04 LTS, and then just stick with LTS versions if you can't upgrade very often. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades But the last thing to try, if none of the above works might be to do: dpkg --purge --force-remove-reinstreq linux-image-extra-4.4.0-212-generic and see if _that_ does the trick. John > Number Two: > I cannot get audio out of Line Out to my speakers. And I cannot get > audio into Line In to make recordings. I *do* get audio from the audio > output on my HDMI monitor. This might be related to the need for codecs, > but when I try various terminal commands to load more codecs, I get > problem Number 1 ! Yeah, let's fix your apt-repo, which seems to be in a wierd state. But maybe you can also post what your hardware is, including the output of: lspci > Some of what I read on the Web mentions tex files that could cause > Number 1. I do have TeXstudio installed. I tried to uninstall > texstudio and texlive, but when I do that, I get the message ant > Number One! Yeah, I doubt that's the problem, but we'll try to help here. Do you have any special stuff in /etc/apt/sources.list or do you have any extra file in ls /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ and what I'd probably do is remove all extra sources in there for now, just to make sure things are ok.

June 27, 2024