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Re: We've got meeting on the 8th of August!

by hammerron

Hi Tim, Sorry for the late reply. To comment about a "back to basics" meeting. I think that is a terrific idea. I would go further to say not just one, but from time to time having more of them again also, or maybe a small portion of some meetings. It might welcome in a wider range of members to WLUG. Ron On 7/29/24 09:51, Tim Keller via WLUG wrote: > Hey Everybody! We've got a meeting and a topic idea! > > We've got a meeting on the 8th! > > During the last couple of meetings, we've had a couple of new users > come by and it was clear to me that we were going into the higher > level linux concepts, many of which were flying over their heads. > > I was thinking it might be really good to have a back to basics wlug > meeting, where we get in get into unix philosophy, what a distro is, > what parts make up a distro, common things people deal with, etc. > Yeah, nah? > > I'm also trying to turn a page here and start the conversation about > the meeting more than say.. 2 days before the meeting so the meetings > can continue to have their ruckus nature, but actually have some bit > of structure! > > Thanks, > Tim. > > -- > I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their > constituents as "consumers". > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list --wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email towlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account:https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings:https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive:https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org…

Aug. 6, 2024

Re: Looking for advice for home server

by Jon "maddog" Hall

Kevin, You might want to take a look at the Freedombox.org software: https://freedombox.org Run your digital services from your home > FreedomBox is a private server for non-experts: it lets you install and > configure server applications with only a few clicks. It runs on cheap > hardware of your choice, uses your internet connection and power, and is > under your control. It has a front panel and was designed for people who are running a home server and are not super-admins, although I do not think that it is "Mom&Pop(TM)" ready either. There is a lot of functionality there.....you do not have to set up everything all at once. 99% of the software has been incorporated into Debian 11 and Debian 12, and therefore runs on a variety of hardware platforms, everything from an old laptop to a Raspberry Pi 5 (which can go up to 8 GB of RAM for 80 USD). The RPi 5 has a PCI-e bus built in and there are "Hats" that allow you to add two M.2 solid state memory cards to set up RAID. The 1 Gbps ethernet connection would probably give you all the throughput you need. md On Sat, Aug 3, 2024 at 4:10 PM Kevin Stratton via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > I am looking for a cheap solution for the following: > > 1) Email server/redireector. I want to have a full custom domain and > email addre0ss. > > 2) FTP server on the same domain as the email server. > > 3) GUI setup preferred, I do not want to invest the time (right now) to > get this working as a 'ground up' > > project. > > 4) Total bandwidth needs should be negligible. > > > How would you approach this? > > At a very high level, I am considering: > > 1) Dedicating a DDR3 (RAM) era Intel I3 P.C. (sorry, I don not know the > generation) and installing NAS software with the appropriate docker > plugins, if they exist. I do not know if this is even reasonable. > Suggestions are appreciated. I am using a home ISP account. I am aware > of DynDNS type services to get around the lack of a static IP. I do not > currently plan on using this device as an actual NAS due to security > concerns. If necessary, I will use sneaker-net to transfer data, > although I am thinking about ssh or even RS232. > > 2) Renting out space on a service like Amazon Web services. Maybe they > have an image that is already what I want. > > Any ideas/thoughts/experiences would be appreciated. I hope to be at > the meeting next Thursday. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/4MMUM… >

Aug. 4, 2024

Re: Looking for advice for home server

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Stratton via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > I am looking for a cheap solution for the following: > 1) Email server/redireector. I want to have a full custom domain and > email addre0ss. > 2) FTP server on the same domain as the email server. Please no! Setup 'sftp' instead. This does require two IPs on the system since sftp (ftp over ssh) will take up one port because ideally you'd setup virtual users who can't actually login to the system... > 3) GUI setup preferred, I do not want to invest the time (right now) > to get this working as a 'ground up' project. I'd think about Ansible, which lets you do repeatable test builds at home. The trick, of course, is getting your email setup working that way. There's a bunch of parts: postfix for SMTP incoming/outgoing dovecot for IMAP postscreen rspamd - spam filtering dkim - for singing your outgoing emails nginx - for hosting various files for google and others to check for you being who you say you are. Fun fun. And a bunch of other stuff. I'd actually suggest maybe you look at https://mailinabox.email/ do you your setup. I think if I had to do it again, i'd go that route. The most important part though, and the most annoying, if getting your VPS and making sure it's not in a spam block, or likely to get added into one. Its... painful. I've been running stoffel.org for 20+ years now for email and it's gotten harder and harder. Nowdays you need to have SPF keys setup in DNS, DKIM keys for signing emails, you want to make sure you don't relay anything any more, because that will get you banned. Which reminds me I need to stop relaying too. Sigh... > 4) Total bandwidth needs should be negligible. Very true, a mail server is pretty low bandwidth. > How would you approach this? > At a very high level, I am considering: > 1) Dedicating a DDR3 (RAM) era Intel I3 P.C. (sorry, I don not know the > generation) and installing NAS software with the appropriate docker > plugins, if they exist. I do not know if this is even reasonable. > Suggestions are appreciated. I am using a home ISP account. I am aware > of DynDNS type services to get around the lack of a static IP. I do not > currently plan on using this device as an actual NAS due to security > concerns. If necessary, I will use sneaker-net to transfer data, > although I am thinking about ssh or even RS232. If you're thinking of running this at home on your home internet then you're in for probably a rude surprise. Most big mail providers tend to block home IP blocks and not accept email because the volume of spam from them is so high. I'm on a Linode droplet right now, but thinking of moving to something else. > 2) Renting out space on a service like Amazon Web services. Maybe they > have an image that is already what I want. Again, those AWS IP blocks tend to get blocked and dropped because of the spam levels. > Any ideas/thoughts/experiences would be appreciated. I hope to be at > the meeting next Thursday. Happy to chat then. I'd suggest you going the postfix.org mailing list and look through the archives. If you do go with a VPS, you'll really want something with 2gb of RAM or more, because rspamd is a hog. Postfix and dovecot are simple. It's the getting others to accept your email that sucks. John

Aug. 4, 2024

Re: Looking for advice for home server

by Tim Keller

Kevin, It's been our experience that hosting your own email server on a consumer ISP is a nightmare. Because of the spam and bots many companies (mine included) simply drop mail from anything that remotely resolves to a consumer ISP IP. There are solutions around this. Amazon has a service (SES) that can front your mail server and will host your MX records. You'll still need to handle a tremendous amount of spam filtering, etc. When you say FTP server I presume you mean SFTP? As for a NAS, you might be interested in something like FreeNAS Scale. It's linux based, it'll run on *anything. *It handles the whole ZFS setup and configuration of services, etc. It also very clearly supports docker and has a nice interface for installing applications. So you can very easily install something like Min.io and now your NAS has S3 bucket capabilities. For security, you might want to think about setting up something like tailscale so you won't have to knock (too many) holes in your firewall to handle the incoming traffic devices and the NAS will be on a private WAN. Tim. On Sat, Aug 3, 2024 at 4:09 PM Kevin Stratton via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > I am looking for a cheap solution for the following: > > 1) Email server/redireector. I want to have a full custom domain and > email addre0ss. > > 2) FTP server on the same domain as the email server. > > 3) GUI setup preferred, I do not want to invest the time (right now) to > get this working as a 'ground up' > > project. > > 4) Total bandwidth needs should be negligible. > > > How would you approach this? > > At a very high level, I am considering: > > 1) Dedicating a DDR3 (RAM) era Intel I3 P.C. (sorry, I don not know the > generation) and installing NAS software with the appropriate docker > plugins, if they exist. I do not know if this is even reasonable. > Suggestions are appreciated. I am using a home ISP account. I am aware > of DynDNS type services to get around the lack of a static IP. I do not > currently plan on using this device as an actual NAS due to security > concerns. If necessary, I will use sneaker-net to transfer data, > although I am thinking about ssh or even RS232. > > 2) Renting out space on a service like Amazon Web services. Maybe they > have an image that is already what I want. > > Any ideas/thoughts/experiences would be appreciated. I hope to be at > the meeting next Thursday. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/4MMUM… > -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Aug. 4, 2024

Looking for advice for home server

by Kevin Stratton

I am looking for a cheap solution for the following: 1) Email server/redireector. I want to have a full custom domain and email addre0ss. 2) FTP server on the same domain as the email server. 3) GUI setup preferred, I do not want to invest the time (right now) to get this working as a 'ground up' project. 4) Total bandwidth needs should be negligible. How would you approach this? At a very high level, I am considering: 1) Dedicating a DDR3 (RAM) era Intel I3 P.C. (sorry, I don not know the generation) and installing NAS software with the appropriate docker plugins, if they exist. I do not know if this is even reasonable. Suggestions are appreciated. I am using a home ISP account. I am aware of DynDNS type services to get around the lack of a static IP. I do not currently plan on using this device as an actual NAS due to security concerns. If necessary, I will use sneaker-net to transfer data, although I am thinking about ssh or even RS232. 2) Renting out space on a service like Amazon Web services. Maybe they have an image that is already what I want. Any ideas/thoughts/experiences would be appreciated. I hope to be at the meeting next Thursday.

Aug. 3, 2024

Re: We've got meeting on the 8th of August!

by Joshua Stone

Perhaps we can contrast the fundamentals of a Linux system with all of the new technologies becoming integral to a modern distribution? I've created a survey to get some insight on these changes in the Linux desktop and how quickly they're being adopted. For example: * more than half of respondents said they run Linux without having to multi-boot * nearly 2 out of 3 of respondents said they use a Wayland desktop session only, while 1 out of 6 said they run X.org only * 2 out of 5 respondents said they install most/all of their applications as flatpaks, while almost none of them install snaps at all You can read the survey results here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_GmX0flabMP4xPwBXcGTU6QtAmpdRJQbCUU18QZSdH… You can also take the survey here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScKuxJKUQ-uzc-I2Y8Z6n0vZmcsFg_XQzx… Note: Google email addresses are required to take the survey because I want people to be able to edit their responses and not send duplicate responses. - Josh On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 9:51 AM Kevin Stratton via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > If you are looking for more (popular) productivity, try Blender for > video editing. > > I only watch some of the first part of the video and I remember it being > pretty good. > > Blender for complete beginners (video editing) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh7YPabqeDk (Part 1 of 4) > > Video recording - OBS > > > On 7/31/2024 3:12 PM, Keith Wright via WLUG wrote: > > John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > > > >> So it might be a really good thing for us to show some of this, along > >> with some of the basic apps. > >> > >> - web browser > >> - inkscape > >> - gimp > >> - libre office > >> > >> Basic productivity which most people would want to use. > > I guess what counts as productivity depends upon what you > > want to produce. > > > > I need a web browser (Firefox) to learn about stuff and get it. > > Is there any reason to prefer one over another? > > > > I didn't know what inkscape is. Googled it (with browser). > > It looks like it might be fun to play with, but is it > > "productivity"? > > > > I have used gimp years ago, mostly to make party invitations > > with logo and map. I might have used inkscape if I knew about > > it at the time. > > > > Office, I have heard, can read Microsoft Office documents, > > which is something I refuse to do. Years ago I filtered out > > a lot of stupid spam by setting the SMTP server to reject > > anything with an attached MS-Word file. I think it still > > does that, but nobody sends them anymore. I'm hoping it > > follows Adobe shockwave flash web pages into oblivion. > > > > Besides the browser, my "productivity apps" are: > > > > -- emacs. There may be other ASCII editors, but how > > can one produce _anything_ without _some_ editor? > > > > -- gcc. I am interested in the Scheme programming > > language, but I need a C compiler (and make) to > > make the Scheme interpreter, and everything else. > > > > -- evince. A *.pdf reader. If I download a journal > > article, it's a PDF. > > > > -- TeX, LaTeX. To make my own article.pdf. > > > > -- Postfix, Apache. That's the way I roll. Others > > might think Facebook is a good substitute. Phltt! > > > > This conversation started with a link to a Video. > > How do you make a video? You get the raw material from > > a video camera/"phone", but what software should I use > > to cut and paste, maybe enlarge and crop? > > > > -- Keith > > > > _______________________________________________ > > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/N6TYC… > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/SMNMC… >

Aug. 1, 2024

Re: We've got meeting on the 8th of August!

by Kevin Stratton

If you are looking for more (popular) productivity, try Blender for video editing. I only watch some of the first part of the video and I remember it being pretty good. Blender for complete beginners (video editing) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh7YPabqeDk (Part 1 of 4) Video recording - OBS On 7/31/2024 3:12 PM, Keith Wright via WLUG wrote: > John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > >> So it might be a really good thing for us to show some of this, along >> with some of the basic apps. >> >> - web browser >> - inkscape >> - gimp >> - libre office >> >> Basic productivity which most people would want to use. > I guess what counts as productivity depends upon what you > want to produce. > > I need a web browser (Firefox) to learn about stuff and get it. > Is there any reason to prefer one over another? > > I didn't know what inkscape is. Googled it (with browser). > It looks like it might be fun to play with, but is it > "productivity"? > > I have used gimp years ago, mostly to make party invitations > with logo and map. I might have used inkscape if I knew about > it at the time. > > Office, I have heard, can read Microsoft Office documents, > which is something I refuse to do. Years ago I filtered out > a lot of stupid spam by setting the SMTP server to reject > anything with an attached MS-Word file. I think it still > does that, but nobody sends them anymore. I'm hoping it > follows Adobe shockwave flash web pages into oblivion. > > Besides the browser, my "productivity apps" are: > > -- emacs. There may be other ASCII editors, but how > can one produce _anything_ without _some_ editor? > > -- gcc. I am interested in the Scheme programming > language, but I need a C compiler (and make) to > make the Scheme interpreter, and everything else. > > -- evince. A *.pdf reader. If I download a journal > article, it's a PDF. > > -- TeX, LaTeX. To make my own article.pdf. > > -- Postfix, Apache. That's the way I roll. Others > might think Facebook is a good substitute. Phltt! > > This conversation started with a link to a Video. > How do you make a video? You get the raw material from > a video camera/"phone", but what software should I use > to cut and paste, maybe enlarge and crop? > > -- Keith > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/N6TYC…

Aug. 1, 2024

Re: We've got meeting on the 8th of August!

by Keith Wright

John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > So it might be a really good thing for us to show some of this, along > with some of the basic apps. > > - web browser > - inkscape > - gimp > - libre office > > Basic productivity which most people would want to use. I guess what counts as productivity depends upon what you want to produce. I need a web browser (Firefox) to learn about stuff and get it. Is there any reason to prefer one over another? I didn't know what inkscape is. Googled it (with browser). It looks like it might be fun to play with, but is it "productivity"? I have used gimp years ago, mostly to make party invitations with logo and map. I might have used inkscape if I knew about it at the time. Office, I have heard, can read Microsoft Office documents, which is something I refuse to do. Years ago I filtered out a lot of stupid spam by setting the SMTP server to reject anything with an attached MS-Word file. I think it still does that, but nobody sends them anymore. I'm hoping it follows Adobe shockwave flash web pages into oblivion. Besides the browser, my "productivity apps" are: -- emacs. There may be other ASCII editors, but how can one produce _anything_ without _some_ editor? -- gcc. I am interested in the Scheme programming language, but I need a C compiler (and make) to make the Scheme interpreter, and everything else. -- evince. A *.pdf reader. If I download a journal article, it's a PDF. -- TeX, LaTeX. To make my own article.pdf. -- Postfix, Apache. That's the way I roll. Others might think Facebook is a good substitute. Phltt! This conversation started with a link to a Video. How do you make a video? You get the raw material from a video camera/"phone", but what software should I use to cut and paste, maybe enlarge and crop? -- Keith

July 31, 2024

Re: We've got meeting on the 8th of August!

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Harrington via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > My personal favorite intro video (since basically all of this is still > true in modern linux): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0 Heh, it's only 42 years old, but it's still an interesting thing to watch. But it does miss the point today in alot of ways. I had a discussion with a person last thursday who also complained about us not being quite as good about getting back to basics with Linux and how to install and use it. So it might be a really good thing for us to show some of this, along with some of the basic apps. - web browser - inkscape - gimp - libre office Basic productivity which most people would want to use. > On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 9:51 AM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: >> >> Hey Everybody! We've got a meeting and a topic idea! >> >> We've got a meeting on the 8th! >> >> During the last couple of meetings, we've had a couple of new users come by and it was clear to me that we were going into the higher level linux concepts, many of which were flying over their heads. >> >> I was thinking it might be really good to have a back to basics wlug meeting, where we get in get into unix philosophy, what a distro is, what parts make up a distro, common things people deal with, etc. Yeah, nah? >> >> I'm also trying to turn a page here and start the conversation about the meeting more than say.. 2 days before the meeting so the meetings can continue to have their ruckus nature, but actually have some bit of structure! >> >> Thanks, >> Tim. >> >> -- >> I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers". >> _______________________________________________ >> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >> Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >> Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/ACOXX… > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/ZJPQ6…

July 30, 2024

Re: We've got meeting on the 8th of August!

by Kevin Harrington

My personal favorite intro video (since basically all of this is still true in modern linux): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0 On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 9:51 AM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > > Hey Everybody! We've got a meeting and a topic idea! > > We've got a meeting on the 8th! > > During the last couple of meetings, we've had a couple of new users come by and it was clear to me that we were going into the higher level linux concepts, many of which were flying over their heads. > > I was thinking it might be really good to have a back to basics wlug meeting, where we get in get into unix philosophy, what a distro is, what parts make up a distro, common things people deal with, etc. Yeah, nah? > > I'm also trying to turn a page here and start the conversation about the meeting more than say.. 2 days before the meeting so the meetings can continue to have their ruckus nature, but actually have some bit of structure! > > Thanks, > Tim. > > -- > I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers". > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/ACOXX…

July 29, 2024

We've got meeting on the 8th of August!

by Tim Keller

Hey Everybody! We've got a meeting and a topic idea! We've got a meeting on the 8th! During the last couple of meetings, we've had a couple of new users come by and it was clear to me that we were going into the higher level linux concepts, many of which were flying over their heads. I was thinking it might be really good to have a back to basics wlug meeting, where we get in get into unix philosophy, what a distro is, what parts make up a distro, common things people deal with, etc. Yeah, nah? I'm also trying to turn a page here and start the conversation about the meeting more than say.. 2 days before the meeting so the meetings can continue to have their ruckus nature, but actually have some bit of structure! Thanks, Tim. -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

July 29, 2024

Re: Happy Sysadmin day!

by Michael Voorhis

I've had a few disk failures this week running up to today's 'holiday' which nobody a WPI seems to be aware of. In all it's been pretty boring, which is JUST FINE for me. On 7/26/24 4:08 PM, Tim Keller via WLUG wrote: > Happy Sysadmin day!

July 26, 2024

Happy Sysadmin day!

by Tim Keller

Happy Sysadmin day! I hope your day has been less eventful than mine! Later, Tim. -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

July 26, 2024

Re: Where do I put mount script?

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Stratton via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > I have a NAS that I am able to mount using NFS and I suspect that I > can also mount as CIFS. Be careful, you want to mount as one or the other if at all possible. Otherwise there leads madness since the NFS persmission and CIFS permissions aren't really compatible. > I am currently using multicast DNS addresses in the addresses in my > mount command and I do not want to use the numeric style IP > addresses that seems to be required for /etc/fstab. Why? What does this buy you? Do you not have local DNS setup on your home LAN network? > Does anyone have suggestions where to place this mount command > script? This command seems to needs root access, which may limit > where the script with command will be placed. You shouldn't need a script, just add it properly into your /etc/fstab file. But are you trying to access this NAS from both home and while you're at the local coffee shop? So I have my home directory on my home server exported and mounted on a desktop, so when I login to either 'sail' or 'quad' I have the same files. So on sail (a Linux Mint Distro system) I just have: quad:/home /home nfs _netdev,auto,vers=3 0 0 in my /etc/fstab file. And of course I have an entry for quad in /etc/hosts as well, even though it's also in my local network DNS as well. Better safe than sorry. So anyway, the above mount tab entry mounts it on system bootup. John

July 24, 2024

Where do I put mount script?

by Kevin Stratton

I have a NAS that I am able to mount using NFS and I suspect that I can also mount as CIFS. I am currently using multicast DNS addresses in the addresses in my mount command and I do not want to use the numeric style IP addresses that seems to be required for /etc/fstab. Does anyone have suggestions where to place this mount command script? This command seems to needs root access, which may limit where the script with command will be placed.

July 24, 2024

Re: Reminder!! WLUG meeting July 11th 2024 @7pm: Location: Technocopia!

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Jansen" == Jansen Smith via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > Demoed new features of the LLM setup, including Llama3 and document parsing. It was certainly interesting to see this! And it really shows how having a graphics card helps, but if you blow out the size that can fit in the graphic card's memory, it slows way down again. > Talked to John about the open source game Mindustry, which Kevin & I > have compiled from source and > played: https://github.com/Anuken/Mindustry Ah.. it's a java game with graphics. I'll probably pass for now. I'm too much of a nethack/crawl/moria type of gamer. :-) Though I have to admit I've spent some time playing 'naev' which sorta reminds me of the classic 'elite' but without the 3-d graphics. https://github.com/naev/naev Not amazingly fast development, but it's a fun thing to play with. > On Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 5:53 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > Hey everybody! > We've got a WLUG meeting this Thursday at technocopia! > Time: 7pm > Date: July 11th 2024 > Location: 44 Portland St. Worcester MA > Virtual Location: https://meet.jit.si/WlugMA > Topic(s): > SSH exploits > There's been plenty of talk about Ubuntu upgrades, it's worth talking about various backup > strategies and options that are out there. If people have other things they want to talk > about, by all means! I've continued to tinker with the LLM stuff and I'll have that laptop > with me as well. > After the meeting we'll head off for dinner to keep the conversation going. > Later, > Tim. > -- > I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as > "consumers". > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/UMVOQ… > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/G35R2…

July 13, 2024

Re: Reminder!! WLUG meeting July 11th 2024 @7pm: Location: Technocopia!

by Jansen Smith

Demoed new features of the LLM setup, including Llama3 and document parsing. Talked to John about the open source game Mindustry, which Kevin & I have compiled from source and played: https://github.com/Anuken/Mindustry On Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 5:53 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > > Hey everybody! > > We've got a WLUG meeting this Thursday at technocopia! > > Time: 7pm > Date: July 11th 2024 > Location: 44 Portland St. Worcester MA > Virtual Location: https://meet.jit.si/WlugMA > > Topic(s): > SSH exploits > There's been plenty of talk about Ubuntu upgrades, it's worth talking > about various backup strategies and options that are out there. If people > have other things they want to talk about, by all means! I've continued to > tinker with the LLM stuff and I'll have that laptop with me as well. > > After the meeting we'll head off for dinner to keep the conversation going. > > Later, > Tim. > -- > I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their > constituents as "consumers". > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/UMVOQ… >

July 12, 2024

Running a bit late, be cool!

by Tim Keller

July 11, 2024

Reminder!! WLUG meeting July 11th 2024 @7pm: Location: Technocopia!

by Tim Keller

Hey everybody! We've got a WLUG meeting this Thursday at technocopia! Time: 7pm Date: July 11th 2024 Location: 44 Portland St. Worcester MA Virtual Location: https://meet.jit.si/WlugMA Topic(s): SSH exploits There's been plenty of talk about Ubuntu upgrades, it's worth talking about various backup strategies and options that are out there. If people have other things they want to talk about, by all means! I've continued to tinker with the LLM stuff and I'll have that laptop with me as well. After the meeting we'll head off for dinner to keep the conversation going. Later, Tim. -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

July 11, 2024

Re: Reminder!! WLUG meeting July 11th 2024 @7pm: Location: Technocopia!

by Tim Keller

Awesome! That would be really cool to see! Also, yes, the data on that page is VERY outdated! I'll get on fixing that! Also, my CC just got hit with a charge for Meetup, so I might as well keep that up to date as well! Thanks, Tim. On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:30 PM Jansen Smith <Jansen(a)bstarengineering.com> wrote: > I have a demo of open source LLM document parsing prepped. > I *might* have an open LLM terminal interpreter demo prepped... We'll see. > > Also, this info on WLUG.org's Participate tab seems outdated: > > > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 5:59 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> > wrote: > >> Hey everybody! >> >> We've got a WLUG meeting this Thursday at technocopia! >> >> Time: 7pm >> Date: July 11th 2024 >> Location: 44 Portland St. Worcester MA >> Virtual Location: https://meet.jit.si/WlugMA >> >> Topic(s): >> SSH exploits >> There's been plenty of talk about Ubuntu upgrades, it's worth talking >> about various backup strategies and options that are out there. If people >> have other things they want to talk about, by all means! I've continued to >> tinker with the LLM stuff and I'll have that laptop with me as well. >> >> After the meeting we'll head off for dinner to keep the conversation >> going. >> >> Later, >> Tim. >> >> >> >> -- >> I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their >> constituents as "consumers". >> _______________________________________________ >> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >> Change Settings: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >> Web Forum/Archive: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/NSTLC… >> > -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

July 11, 2024

Re: Reminder!! WLUG meeting July 11th 2024 @7pm: Location: Technocopia!

by Jansen Smith

I have a demo of open source LLM document parsing prepped. I *might* have an open LLM terminal interpreter demo prepped... We'll see. Also, this info on WLUG.org's Participate tab seems outdated: On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 5:59 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > Hey everybody! > > We've got a WLUG meeting this Thursday at technocopia! > > Time: 7pm > Date: July 11th 2024 > Location: 44 Portland St. Worcester MA > Virtual Location: https://meet.jit.si/WlugMA > > Topic(s): > SSH exploits > There's been plenty of talk about Ubuntu upgrades, it's worth talking > about various backup strategies and options that are out there. If people > have other things they want to talk about, by all means! I've continued to > tinker with the LLM stuff and I'll have that laptop with me as well. > > After the meeting we'll head off for dinner to keep the conversation going. > > Later, > Tim. > > > > -- > I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their > constituents as "consumers". > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/NSTLC… >

July 11, 2024

Reminder!! WLUG meeting July 11th 2024 @7pm: Location: Technocopia!

by Tim Keller

Hey everybody! We've got a WLUG meeting this Thursday at technocopia! Time: 7pm Date: July 11th 2024 Location: 44 Portland St. Worcester MA Virtual Location: https://meet.jit.si/WlugMA Topic(s): SSH exploits There's been plenty of talk about Ubuntu upgrades, it's worth talking about various backup strategies and options that are out there. If people have other things they want to talk about, by all means! I've continued to tinker with the LLM stuff and I'll have that laptop with me as well. After the meeting we'll head off for dinner to keep the conversation going. Later, Tim. -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

July 9, 2024

Re: DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by Jon "maddog" Hall

Kevin, I found two articles that gave more technical information on the exact problem. First of all is this issue of the chip that was used to supply "serial control" of various devices. Many people might not think about it, but the keyboard and mice are also "serial devices" and used up two ports of the four port DC7085 gate array: These systems have four asynchronous serial lines that are provided by a > DC7085 gate array. Of the four serial lines, only the third line has the > required modem control signals to support a modem. A 4-pin MMJ connector is > provided for the keyboard line, a 7-pin DIN connector for mouse line, and > two 6-pin MMJ connectors for printer and modem lines. > > Now we put in who articles about what lines and pins were actually implemented: http://www.vanade.com/~blc/DS3100/pinouts.html https://www.tuhs.org/Usenet/comp.unix.ultrix/1991-May/005327.html Now it appears as if the DS 3000 had two "serial ports", one designated for a modem and one designated for a printer. Reading them brings back more of the "issues". One issue is that many Unix systems were not used just as a desktop system, but as "servers" too. A prime example of this was that a VMS Workstation was only allowed a single user to be logged on at one time. A multi-user license was not allowed for VMS Workstations through a dictum put forward by VAX product management. This, of course, was not what Unix people (and particularly Sun customers) would do. They might have a single person using the keyboard, mouse and main screen, but have several others logged onto the system over TCP/IP. *You can now skip ahead to more about the issue of serial ports, but you will be missing an interesting part of DEC history:* For years DEC refused to sell a multi-user license to workstation users. We even had a separate product called Ultrix-32w which was both the Ultrix-32 software plus the graphical server and came with a two user license (so either uucp or the network administrator) could log in at the same time as the user at the main keyboard. However, no other general user could log in at the same time. So the base Ultrix-32w came with that two-user license, and there was no "upgrade". Eventually I found this "rule" so damaging to Digital's Unix business that I decided to fight it. This "rule" might have made sense in the original days of 1 million instructions/second CPUs and unaccelerated graphics, but made NO sense with the much faster and accelerated graphics. We were being whipped senseless by Sun's marketing team. So I traded this "rule" down, and finally found that it had been generated by Jesse Lipcon, at that time a VP of workstations. I called him up and explained the situation. "Oh, I NEVER meant that to apply to UNIX Workstations...only VMS Workstations" said Jesse. "The Unix market is much different." So I held a meeting the next week. I picked the largest meeting room, expecting there would be much argument. I made a huge presentation about the whole issue and how much business we were missing. I pointed out that it was really up to the customer how many people or processes would be on that system, and DEC should not be limiting it artificially. The day of the meeting, the room was packed. There were people standing in the hallways. I stood up at the front, made the presentation, and asked if anyone had objections. No one raised their hand. "Then why are you here?" I asked. "We just came to see the fireworks." was the answer. "Then Digital now sells multi-user workstations." I declared. Of course things were a little more complicated than that, since there were changes to documentation, licensing, and a whole project around adding another graphics tube, keyboard and mouse to the hardware (the "Multi-User Caylith" project), but we charged ahead with the multi-user system. *Back to the serial ports:* So the VMS viewpoint of workstations you *might* have a printer and a modem hooked to the workstation, but more likely these would be attached to a server someplace to be shared with other workstation users. From a Unix standpoint, your workstation might ALSO be a server, and might have a printer and modem OR TWO MODEMS attached to the workstation, On either serial port they worked fairly well at lower transfer speeds with handshaking, but with higher speeds the handshaking tended to break down, especially if you hooked a second modem up to the "printer port". Another issue was the lack of the "CD" line, that tells the system the modem has lost connection, and requires that the software on the system recognize this through a timeout. This violated the concept of "DECstandard 052", a standard that was developed for modems hooked up to DEC's systems. Before the adoption of "DECstandard 052" in order to hook a modem up to a computer and a country's telephone lines you had to test every modem with every piece of hardware and every operating system in every country. This was not only a very expensive process, but took a long time after operating system releases. By developing DECstandard 052 the company made this a lot easier. The hardware and operating system groups only had to certify against DECstandard 052, and customers could then connect up any "standard" modems and know that they had the modem control signals to reliably interact with the modems of the country. The DECstation 3100 did not meet DECstandard 052: DEC STD 052-0 Operational Requirements for Serial Terminals and Computer Interfaces Operating as DTEs Connected to EIA RS-232-C or CCITT V.28 Modems - Part: EL-00052-00 - 1981 We've run both UUCP and SLIP on 3100s here; the modem-control "problems" > really aren't that serious a problem unless you are a high-security sort of > place. What is missing is the CD line that lets the modem tell the computer > that it has lost its connection. This means that when the other end (or the > phone company ;-) decides to hang up on you, the modem knows about it right > away, but the software has to use a timeout mechanism, because the modem's > attempt to say "Hey, we just lost the connection" does not get through. > > This allowed another call to arrive at the same port, and perhaps gain control of it without having to authenticate. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No. Using the printer port for a modem made the issue even worse. After all, you did not expect the printer to talk back to you at high speed. So now you know the REST of the story. md On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 1:32 PM Kevin Stratton <kstratton(a)fastmail.us> wrote: > I found this information interesting. > > The statement > > "To save a couple of pennies per system the > > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem > > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very > > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". > > has two different meanings (to me) in the context of this discussion. They > are: > > 1) RI and DCD are not implemented in hardware (Ring indicator and data > carrier detect) > > 2) A subset of RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR as well as RI and DCD are not > implemented in hardware. > > Does anyone want to clarify this in greater detail? Just curious. > > > On 7/6/2024 8:59 PM, Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG wrote: > > John: > > That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case > and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just > slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. > > > That is why I said "based". "Based" means that you did not have to > requalify a lot of the parts, that you could use a lot of the same Bill of > Materials....it does not mean you use exactly the same PCB. In the case > of the VAXstation/DECstation 3100 that meant we used the same serial io > chips and did not provide the hardware flow control. > > Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, >> though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since >> the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the >> DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the >> DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. > > > The server groups were different engineers, and the 5000s were designed > after the DECstation 3100/2100 series. > > Actually we MIGHT have caught the issue with the serial port for the > DECstation 3100/2100 because I brought up the issue in a hardware meeting > and was assured that it had been fixed because (and I can still hear this > person's voice in my head) the DECstation was a REAL UNIX MACHINE. I > should have found that person later and beaten him to death. > > David: > >> Actually, Cutler was already in trouble with management because of the >> Prism project. Prism was the first try at building a RISC machine (this >> was in the 1985-1986 time frame) and it was managed by Dave Cutler. >> Unfortunately, Dave was not a good administrator. He was doing a very bad >> job of managing the project and doing a very bad job of keeping management >> up to date on what was going on. Finally, management cancelled Prism and >> that is when they decided to go with the MIPS architecture. >> >> That is not what I experienced. I will not comment on Dave's skills as > an administrator or manager of the project. I do know that he had the > very ambitious project of doing the next-generation architecture and the > next generation operating system. He wanted a micro-kernel based system > with "personalities", one personality being VMS and the other personality > being Unix. One issue he had was when there was a clash between > personalities he would always favor VMS and therefore the Unix personality > would not be "perfect". I felt this was a mistake, since Unix people did > not tolerate things that did not smell like Unix. VMS people could have > been led over to a new environment over time since DEC controlled the path > with VMS. > > The reason I know this is that I personally interviewed with David Cutler > for the position of Unix Product Manager for his new operating system. > The interview was going fine until I tried to explain to Dave why his > strategy was wrong and he had to make the Unix side really compatible. > Then things got ugly, as David really did not like to be told he was wrong. > > Ken did have the bad habit of cutting off Dave's development money, then > giving it back to him again. I seem to remember that Dave was still going > full steam ahead while the PMAX was being developed, which is one reason > why he was caught so flat-footed when PMAX was announced. It was kept > REALLY SECRET. It probably did not help that Ken reportedly asked David > in a gleeful tone if the new chip would be as fast as the PMAX.... > > "Will it be THIS FAST, Dave?" was the reported question. > > It is also my belief that the Alpha chip came directly from Dave's work on > the PRISM, and that Windows NT came directly from David's work on the > microkernel with personalities. DEC never "decided to go with MIPS" > except as a stop-gap measure for Unix. If DEC had "decided to go with > MIPS" they would have ported VMS to it, and since that never happened, it > was obvious that DEC had not embraced MIPS. > > md > > > On Sat, Jul 6, 2024 at 3:27 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > >> >>>>> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: >> >> > The DECstation 3100 (aka the PMAX) was a system based on the same >> > motherboard as the VAXstation 3100, except with a MIPS processor. >> > It was the first time that Digital had built a system using another >> > company's chip architecture. >> >> That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case >> and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just >> slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. >> >> > We had a choice between supporting the MIPS R2000 chip as "big >> > endian" or "little endian". We chose to support "little endian" to >> > be compatible with PDP-11s, VAXen and Intel chips, rather than be >> > compatible with other manufacturers. This, in my mind, was very >> > important since it let us share data over NFS and give greater >> > compatibility with programs and libraries of applications already >> > running on other Unix-like systems such as Ultrix, BSD, etc. Sun >> > experienced this grief when they ported Solaris off the big endian >> > Motorola and SPARC chips to little endian Intel. >> >> > One of the few issues of the DECstation 3100 (and 2100, known as the >> > "PMIN" after that) was that the serial I/O port did not support >> > hardware handshaking. To save a couple of pennies per system the >> > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem >> > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very >> > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". What >> > they meant was that "very few VMS workstation users hooked a modem >> > up to their serial line", opting for DECnet to handle their >> > networking. Therefore the pins necessary to support hardware modem >> > control were missing from the DECstation product lines. >> >> Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, >> though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since >> the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the >> DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the >> DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. >> :-) >> >> I used to live and breathe the DEC options catalog, which was >> something like an inch thick book in purple (maybe blue? maybe changed >> each year?) with all the various options and configurations you could >> get. >> >> > Unix users, on the other hand, often had modems hooked up to their >> > workstation, to handle cu(1), uucp(1) and other serial line >> > protocols. We eventually got around this by better refining >> > software modem control, but it was painful. >> >> The EE department had Sun 1s at WPI, and they have the 9600 baud >> bitnet connection running of a VAX 11/780 at the time. >> >> > The proposal, design and release of the DECstation 3100 was a >> > top-secret project inside of DEC, kept secret from even many people >> > in the Digital Unix group in Nashua, New Hampshire. The >> > development of the system was done in Palo Alto's WorkStation >> > Engineering group and the software engineering was done in the >> > Western Software Labs in Palo Alto, albeit by taking key engineers >> > from the Nashua facility and transplanting them temporarily to Palo >> > Alto. >> >> > The implementation was kept so secret that it caught Dave Cutler, >> > then working on DEC's next-generation operating system and chips, by >> > surprise when it debuted at a Board Meeting in Maynard, >> > Massachusetts. Shortly after that board meeting Mr. Cutler left >> > Digital and moved (with some of his team) to Microsoft. >> >> Do you think that was just the straw that broke the camel's back? >> >> > The DECstations only were manufactured for a couple of years, as the >> > DEC Alpha processor replaced MIPS in Digital's lineup. Although >> > originally promised that OSF/1 would be ported to the DECstation >> > line, this port was dropped due to realizing that there would never >> > be an application base to support the customers of a DECstation >> > OSF/1 port. It was better for ISVs and customers to maintain the >> > Ultrix base for the DECstations than to split the base into Ultrix >> > and OSF/1. >> >> Yeah, we had a ton of DECstations and a bunch of various early model >> Alphas at WPI which we beta tested for DEC. The AS2100 with 8 DEC >> StorageWorks canisters (which Netapp used on their early F220, F330, >> F740 NAS systems) holding 3.5" disks, dual ported, hot-swapable. Nice >> gear. >> >> The move from Ultrix to DEC OSF/1 was a bit painful, but not terrible >> as I recall, but I'm sure I've blocked all the bad memories from then. >> >> Thanks for the walk down memory lane! >> John >> > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/UUCPQ… > >

July 7, 2024

Re: DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by Kevin Stratton

I found this information interesting. The statement "To save a couple of pennies per system the > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". has two different meanings (to me) in the context of this discussion. They are: 1) RI and DCD are not implemented in hardware (Ring indicator and data carrier detect) 2) A subset of RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR as well as RI and DCD are not implemented in hardware. Does anyone want to clarify this in greater detail? Just curious. On 7/6/2024 8:59 PM, Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG wrote: > John: > > That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case > and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just > slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. > > > That is why I said "based". "Based" means that you did not have to > requalify a lot of the parts, that you could use a lot of the same > Bill of Materials....it does not mean you use exactly the same PCB. > In the case of the VAXstation/DECstation 3100 that meant we used the > same serial io chips and did not provide the hardware flow control. > > Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, > though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since > the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the > DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the > DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. > > > The server groups were different engineers, and the 5000s were > designed after the DECstation 3100/2100 series. > > Actually we MIGHT have caught the issue with the serial port for the > DECstation 3100/2100 because I brought up the issue in a hardware > meeting and was assured that it had been fixed because (and I can > still hear this person's voice in my head) the DECstation was a REAL > UNIX MACHINE. I should have found that person later and beaten him > to death. > > David: > > Actually, Cutler was already in trouble with management because of > the Prism project. Prism was the first try at building a RISC > machine (this was in the 1985-1986 time frame) and it was managed > by Dave Cutler. Unfortunately, Dave was not a good administrator. > He was doing a very bad job of managing the project and doing a > very bad job of keeping management up to date on what was going > on. Finally, management cancelled Prism and that is when they > decided to go with the MIPS architecture. > > That is not what I experienced. I will not comment on Dave's skills > as an administrator or manager of the project. I do know that he had > the very ambitious project of doing the next-generation architecture > and the next generation operating system. He wanted a micro-kernel > based system with "personalities", one personality being VMS and the > other personality being Unix. One issue he had was when there was a > clash between personalities he would always favor VMS and therefore > the Unix personality would not be "perfect". I felt this was a > mistake, since Unix people did not tolerate things that did not smell > like Unix. VMS people could have been led over to a new environment > over time since DEC controlled the path with VMS. > > The reason I know this is that I personally interviewed with David > Cutler for the position of Unix Product Manager for his new operating > system. The interview was going fine until I tried to explain to > Dave why his strategy was wrong and he had to make the Unix side > really compatible. Then things got ugly, as David really did not like > to be told he was wrong. > > Ken did have the bad habit of cutting off Dave's development money, > then giving it back to him again. I seem to remember that Dave was > still going full steam ahead while the PMAX was being developed, which > is one reason why he was caught so flat-footed when PMAX was > announced. It was kept REALLY SECRET. It probably did not help > that Ken reportedly asked David in a gleeful tone if the new chip > would be as fast as the PMAX.... > > "Will it be THIS FAST, Dave?" was the reported question. > > It is also my belief that the Alpha chip came directly from Dave's > work on the PRISM, and that Windows NT came directly from David's work > on the microkernel with personalities. DEC never "decided to go > with MIPS" except as a stop-gap measure for Unix. If DEC had > "decided to go with MIPS" they would have ported VMS to it, and since > that never happened, it was obvious that DEC had not embraced MIPS. > > md > > > On Sat, Jul 6, 2024 at 3:27 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > > >>>>> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> > writes: > > > The DECstation 3100 (aka the PMAX) was a system based on the same > > motherboard as the VAXstation 3100, except with a MIPS processor. > > It was the first time that Digital had built a system using another > > company's chip architecture. > > That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case > and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just > slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. > > > We had a choice between supporting the MIPS R2000 chip as "big > > endian" or "little endian". We chose to support "little endian" to > > be compatible with PDP-11s, VAXen and Intel chips, rather than be > > compatible with other manufacturers. This, in my mind, was very > > important since it let us share data over NFS and give greater > > compatibility with programs and libraries of applications already > > running on other Unix-like systems such as Ultrix, BSD, etc. Sun > > experienced this grief when they ported Solaris off the big endian > > Motorola and SPARC chips to little endian Intel. > > > One of the few issues of the DECstation 3100 (and 2100, known as the > > "PMIN" after that) was that the serial I/O port did not support > > hardware handshaking. To save a couple of pennies per system the > > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem > > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very > > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". What > > they meant was that "very few VMS workstation users hooked a modem > > up to their serial line", opting for DECnet to handle their > > networking. Therefore the pins necessary to support hardware modem > > control were missing from the DECstation product lines. > > Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, > though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since > the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the > DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the > DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. > :-) > > I used to live and breathe the DEC options catalog, which was > something like an inch thick book in purple (maybe blue? maybe changed > each year?) with all the various options and configurations you could > get. > > > Unix users, on the other hand, often had modems hooked up to their > > workstation, to handle cu(1), uucp(1) and other serial line > > protocols. We eventually got around this by better refining > > software modem control, but it was painful. > > The EE department had Sun 1s at WPI, and they have the 9600 baud > bitnet connection running of a VAX 11/780 at the time. > > > The proposal, design and release of the DECstation 3100 was a > > top-secret project inside of DEC, kept secret from even many people > > in the Digital Unix group in Nashua, New Hampshire. The > > development of the system was done in Palo Alto's WorkStation > > Engineering group and the software engineering was done in the > > Western Software Labs in Palo Alto, albeit by taking key engineers > > from the Nashua facility and transplanting them temporarily to Palo > > Alto. > > > The implementation was kept so secret that it caught Dave Cutler, > > then working on DEC's next-generation operating system and chips, by > > surprise when it debuted at a Board Meeting in Maynard, > > Massachusetts. Shortly after that board meeting Mr. Cutler left > > Digital and moved (with some of his team) to Microsoft. > > Do you think that was just the straw that broke the camel's back? > > > The DECstations only were manufactured for a couple of years, as the > > DEC Alpha processor replaced MIPS in Digital's lineup. Although > > originally promised that OSF/1 would be ported to the DECstation > > line, this port was dropped due to realizing that there would never > > be an application base to support the customers of a DECstation > > OSF/1 port. It was better for ISVs and customers to maintain the > > Ultrix base for the DECstations than to split the base into Ultrix > > and OSF/1. > > Yeah, we had a ton of DECstations and a bunch of various early model > Alphas at WPI which we beta tested for DEC. The AS2100 with 8 DEC > StorageWorks canisters (which Netapp used on their early F220, F330, > F740 NAS systems) holding 3.5" disks, dual ported, hot-swapable. Nice > gear. > > The move from Ultrix to DEC OSF/1 was a bit painful, but not terrible > as I recall, but I'm sure I've blocked all the bad memories from then. > > Thanks for the walk down memory lane! > John > > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list --wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email towlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account:https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings:https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive:https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org…

July 7, 2024

Re: DECStation 3100 on a RPi2040...

by Jon "maddog" Hall

John: That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. That is why I said "based". "Based" means that you did not have to requalify a lot of the parts, that you could use a lot of the same Bill of Materials....it does not mean you use exactly the same PCB. In the case of the VAXstation/DECstation 3100 that meant we used the same serial io chips and did not provide the hardware flow control. Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, > though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since > the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the > DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the > DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. The server groups were different engineers, and the 5000s were designed after the DECstation 3100/2100 series. Actually we MIGHT have caught the issue with the serial port for the DECstation 3100/2100 because I brought up the issue in a hardware meeting and was assured that it had been fixed because (and I can still hear this person's voice in my head) the DECstation was a REAL UNIX MACHINE. I should have found that person later and beaten him to death. David: > Actually, Cutler was already in trouble with management because of the > Prism project. Prism was the first try at building a RISC machine (this > was in the 1985-1986 time frame) and it was managed by Dave Cutler. > Unfortunately, Dave was not a good administrator. He was doing a very bad > job of managing the project and doing a very bad job of keeping management > up to date on what was going on. Finally, management cancelled Prism and > that is when they decided to go with the MIPS architecture. > > That is not what I experienced. I will not comment on Dave's skills as an administrator or manager of the project. I do know that he had the very ambitious project of doing the next-generation architecture and the next generation operating system. He wanted a micro-kernel based system with "personalities", one personality being VMS and the other personality being Unix. One issue he had was when there was a clash between personalities he would always favor VMS and therefore the Unix personality would not be "perfect". I felt this was a mistake, since Unix people did not tolerate things that did not smell like Unix. VMS people could have been led over to a new environment over time since DEC controlled the path with VMS. The reason I know this is that I personally interviewed with David Cutler for the position of Unix Product Manager for his new operating system. The interview was going fine until I tried to explain to Dave why his strategy was wrong and he had to make the Unix side really compatible. Then things got ugly, as David really did not like to be told he was wrong. Ken did have the bad habit of cutting off Dave's development money, then giving it back to him again. I seem to remember that Dave was still going full steam ahead while the PMAX was being developed, which is one reason why he was caught so flat-footed when PMAX was announced. It was kept REALLY SECRET. It probably did not help that Ken reportedly asked David in a gleeful tone if the new chip would be as fast as the PMAX.... "Will it be THIS FAST, Dave?" was the reported question. It is also my belief that the Alpha chip came directly from Dave's work on the PRISM, and that Windows NT came directly from David's work on the microkernel with personalities. DEC never "decided to go with MIPS" except as a stop-gap measure for Unix. If DEC had "decided to go with MIPS" they would have ported VMS to it, and since that never happened, it was obvious that DEC had not embraced MIPS. md On Sat, Jul 6, 2024 at 3:27 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > >>>>> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > > > The DECstation 3100 (aka the PMAX) was a system based on the same > > motherboard as the VAXstation 3100, except with a MIPS processor. > > It was the first time that Digital had built a system using another > > company's chip architecture. > > That's an interesting statement. I would think it was the same case > and port setup, but a different motherboard since you couldn't just > slot a MIPS processor into a VAXstation processor. > > > We had a choice between supporting the MIPS R2000 chip as "big > > endian" or "little endian". We chose to support "little endian" to > > be compatible with PDP-11s, VAXen and Intel chips, rather than be > > compatible with other manufacturers. This, in my mind, was very > > important since it let us share data over NFS and give greater > > compatibility with programs and libraries of applications already > > running on other Unix-like systems such as Ultrix, BSD, etc. Sun > > experienced this grief when they ported Solaris off the big endian > > Motorola and SPARC chips to little endian Intel. > > > One of the few issues of the DECstation 3100 (and 2100, known as the > > "PMIN" after that) was that the serial I/O port did not support > > hardware handshaking. To save a couple of pennies per system the > > VAX hardware designers determined that having full hardware modem > > control (DECstandard 52) on the board was not needed, because "very > > few workstation users hook a modem up to their serial line". What > > they meant was that "very few VMS workstation users hooked a modem > > up to their serial line", opting for DECnet to handle their > > networking. Therefore the pins necessary to support hardware modem > > control were missing from the DECstation product lines. > > Yes! It's coming back to me, the 3100s were horrible for serial, > though I think they had fixed it for the 5000 series systems, since > the DECstation 5000 and the DECserver 5100 were identical, except the > DECStation had a graphics card and cost 10-20% _less_ than the > DECstation 5000. So we bought DECStations and used them as servers. > :-) > > I used to live and breathe the DEC options catalog, which was > something like an inch thick book in purple (maybe blue? maybe changed > each year?) with all the various options and configurations you could > get. > > > Unix users, on the other hand, often had modems hooked up to their > > workstation, to handle cu(1), uucp(1) and other serial line > > protocols. We eventually got around this by better refining > > software modem control, but it was painful. > > The EE department had Sun 1s at WPI, and they have the 9600 baud > bitnet connection running of a VAX 11/780 at the time. > > > The proposal, design and release of the DECstation 3100 was a > > top-secret project inside of DEC, kept secret from even many people > > in the Digital Unix group in Nashua, New Hampshire. The > > development of the system was done in Palo Alto's WorkStation > > Engineering group and the software engineering was done in the > > Western Software Labs in Palo Alto, albeit by taking key engineers > > from the Nashua facility and transplanting them temporarily to Palo > > Alto. > > > The implementation was kept so secret that it caught Dave Cutler, > > then working on DEC's next-generation operating system and chips, by > > surprise when it debuted at a Board Meeting in Maynard, > > Massachusetts. Shortly after that board meeting Mr. Cutler left > > Digital and moved (with some of his team) to Microsoft. > > Do you think that was just the straw that broke the camel's back? > > > The DECstations only were manufactured for a couple of years, as the > > DEC Alpha processor replaced MIPS in Digital's lineup. Although > > originally promised that OSF/1 would be ported to the DECstation > > line, this port was dropped due to realizing that there would never > > be an application base to support the customers of a DECstation > > OSF/1 port. It was better for ISVs and customers to maintain the > > Ultrix base for the DECstations than to split the base into Ultrix > > and OSF/1. > > Yeah, we had a ton of DECstations and a bunch of various early model > Alphas at WPI which we beta tested for DEC. The AS2100 with 8 DEC > StorageWorks canisters (which Netapp used on their early F220, F330, > F740 NAS systems) holding 3.5" disks, dual ported, hot-swapable. Nice > gear. > > The move from Ultrix to DEC OSF/1 was a bit painful, but not terrible > as I recall, but I'm sure I've blocked all the bad memories from then. > > Thanks for the walk down memory lane! > John >

July 7, 2024