- WLUG - wlug.mailman3.com

Re: [Wlug] Linux from Scratch - anyone use this?

by John Stoffel

>> From: "John Stoffel" <john(a)stoffel.org> >> >> An urge to 'Let's tinker' is both a good and bad >> thing for a SysAdmin to have. Keith> Did he say he was a studly-cap SysAdmin? Did I? And ok, I'll just spell it out. Systems Administrator. Happy now? Keith> I missed that. I took him to be talking about his own Keith> computer. If there aren't too many users paying the bills, Keith> then the Linux Way is to tinker. Sure, absolutely. No arguement there. But if you are doing SysAdmin type work, then IMNSHO it's pointless to obsess over things like this. >> ... I don't think you're going to find one >> that makes you happy. Keith> Maybe not one distribution, but maybe one or another package Keith> manager will look good. Learn to build your own package. I am Keith> not too familiar with all of them, but RPM builds packages from Keith> pristine source and then you can install from the package Keith> without the source, but you can always get the source version. I've done some work with RPM and .deb packages and both have learning curves. Not terrible, but curves none-the-less. And it's a good learning experience because it shows you all the details you do need to look out for when packaging something to be easily installed, upgraded and de-installed. 90% of all code is bounds and error checking. :] Which is boring and not fun to write and test, but vital for a successful package. Keith> The package is at its core a way to keep track of what you did Keith> to build it. You start Linux from Scratch, but when it comes Keith> time to put it on new hardware, you don't start over from Keith> scratch. >> The urge to cleanup is nice, but counter productive >> unless your on an embedded device which can't handle >> all the excess libraries. Keith> I will refrain from waxing on making and cleaning of messes, Keith> bloat, and the cause of all our grievances. You mistake my arguements. I'm not arguing that bloat is good, I'm arguing that trying to compulsively shrink a system might not be a good use of time/resources. But it depends. Keith> The more package builders had Alexander's attitude the fewer Keith> SysAdmins would have Alexander's problem. Well, it's also GUI toolkits, GUI designers who can't/won't pack information into a smaller display area, etc. I don't have the time to writeup a diatrabe here, so I'll just drop it now. :] John

April 7, 2009

Re: [Wlug] Linux from Scratch - anyone use this?

by John Stoffel

>> I've been using 'apt-get --purge autoremove' to cleanup stuff like >> that. Pretty darn simple. Alexander> Perhaps I've a compulsion ... I'm always taking that the Alexander> next step ... "lets see what else we can remove" .... I understand the urge, I've certainly had it myself at times. Not as much now with disk space cheap and my time more expensive (and wanting to spend it on other projects/time-sinks). Since I am a prof sysadmin, that colors my outlook here. :] >> Why? Why do you care? Are you short on disk space? Or just >> compulsivley anal about knowing why a library is on there? *grin* Alexander> Again - compulsive ? perhaps instead of wlug I should see a Alexander> shrink... Nah, just go and have fun and don't let me stop you. You might want to look at Slackware, or maybe one of the other uber-lite distros out there. The big way to get rid of stuff is to get rid of X and all the GUI stuff. Then you'll see real savings. John

April 7, 2009

Re: [Wlug] gl over ssh

by Mike Frysinger

On Monday 06 April 2009 12:24:03 John Stoffel wrote: > Have you tried using the 'nxserver' instead? I've been playing with > it a bit, and it's not blindingly fast at points, but it does seem to > support better OpenGL over the WAN/LAN than X does at time, esp VNC. problem with nxserver is there isnt an open source replacement for every component in the stack. i dont say this because i hate closed source, but rather it makes working across platforms a real pita (OS / architectures). i ended up switching to ssvnc as it nicely integrates ssh and/or ssl into the process. install ssvnc on your client and x11vnc on your server and you're golden. the performance is the best ive seen so far, but that is compared to X forwarding and other VNC clients ... not NX. -mike

April 6, 2009

Re: [Wlug] Linux from Scratch - anyone use this?

by Keith Wright

> From: "John Stoffel" <john(a)stoffel.org> > > An urge to 'Let's tinker' is both a good and bad > thing for a SysAdmin to have. Did he say he was a studly-cap SysAdmin? I missed that. I took him to be talking about his own computer. If there aren't too many users paying the bills, then the Linux Way is to tinker. > ... I don't think you're going to find one > that makes you happy. Maybe not one distribution, but maybe one or another package manager will look good. Learn to build your own package. I am not too familiar with all of them, but RPM builds packages from pristine source and then you can install from the package without the source, but you can always get the source version. The package is at its core a way to keep track of what you did to build it. You start Linux from Scratch, but when it comes time to put it on new hardware, you don't start over from scratch. > The urge to cleanup is nice, but counter productive > unless your on an embedded device which can't handle > all the excess libraries. I will refrain from waxing on making and cleaning of messes, bloat, and the cause of all our grievances. The more package builders had Alexander's attitude the fewer SysAdmins would have Alexander's problem. > It's not an easy battle to solve. < Insert here a classical quote. Don Quixote? Henry IV? Sun Tze?> -- Keith

April 6, 2009

Re: [Wlug] Linux from Scratch - anyone use this?

by James Gray

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Alexander Haley <ahaley(a)alum.wpi.edu> wrote: >> Did he say he was a studly-cap SysAdmin? > no - just my own machine I can afford to muck about with > > Thanks for everyone input ... Hey Alex, you've got the skills, time and determination to maintain your system manually. I for one can't find a problem with that. I'd like to try LFS at some point when I have a bit more of the 3 traits I mention above. :-)

April 6, 2009

Re: [Wlug] Linux from Scratch - anyone use this?

by Alexander Haley

> Did he say he was a studly-cap SysAdmin? no - just my own machine I can afford to muck about with Thanks for everyone input ...

April 6, 2009

Re: [Wlug] Linux from Scratch - anyone use this?

by Alexander Haley

> I've been using 'apt-get --purge autoremove' to cleanup stuff like > that. Pretty darn simple. Perhaps I've a compulsion ... I'm always taking that the next step ... "lets see what else we can remove" .... > Why? Why do you care? Are you short on disk space? Or just > compulsivley anal about knowing why a library is on there? *grin* Again - compulsive ? perhaps instead of wlug I should see a shrink... (:

April 6, 2009

Re: [Wlug] gl over ssh

by John Stoffel

Have you tried using the 'nxserver' instead? I've been playing with it a bit, and it's not blindingly fast at points, but it does seem to support better OpenGL over the WAN/LAN than X does at time, esp VNC. You might try turning off authentication completely as a test and see if you can make it work then. Try 'xhost +' and see if that works for you. John

April 6, 2009

Re: [Wlug] Linux from Scratch - anyone use this?

by John Stoffel

Alexander> So ... my motivations are a deep distrust and loathing when Alexander> I type: apt-get tiny-application Alexander> and I'm then asked to install six hundred and twenty four Alexander> other libraries ... Hmm... I'm not sure that *any* distro is going to make you happy then. What about if you go with 'gentoo' and do 'emerge tiny-application' and it goes off and compiles a whole bunch of libraries and installes them for you? Is that better or worse? For example, have you tried using 'f-spot' and being amazed at how much crap it installs? And it's not a huge huge program by any means. Alexander> Now, I love ubuntu - sure it is easy and easy is good Alexander> .. right ... and I've been pretty much using Debian or Alexander> Ubuntu on some machine, in some form ... since 1998 ... I've been using 'apt-get --purge autoremove' to cleanup stuff like that. Pretty darn simple. Alexander> but .. I'm always getting into trouble with the package Alexander> management system ... I'm always skimming around looking at Alexander> the more obscure installed libraries thinking "gee, no one Alexander> uses lib-foo-bar-zap" ... uninstalling it .. and then Alexander> discovering just who indeed uses lib-foo-bar-zap ... Why? Why do you care? Are you short on disk space? Or just compulsivley anal about knowing why a library is on there? *grin* Alexander> So .. when it comes to my known style of system management Alexander> ... easy isn't good .. it merely leads my inevitable Alexander> tinkering into trouble. I can see that. Alexander> THUS - if I make the system "100% tinkering" .. well - I'll Alexander> have to tow a straighter line .. if I want the darned thing Alexander> to work! Alexander> make sense? Not really. :] If you want a system that works (which I agree with!) it might make sense to build a base system which is stable and only gets security updates, then run a virtual machine (or two or thre...) in which you have your playground to test out new apps, etc. Alexander> I did try gentoo once ... but ... I wasn't happy ... again Alexander> probably due to my irresistible "lets tinker" nature... An urge to 'Let's tinker' is both a good and bad thing for a SysAdmin to have. And why we hate users. :] Sorry, no real answers, because I don't think you're going to find one that makes you happy. The urge to cleanup is nice, but counter productive unless your on an embedded device which can't handle all the excess libraries. It's not an easy battle to solve. John

April 6, 2009

Re: [Wlug] Linux from Scratch - anyone use this?

by Alexander Haley

So ... my motivations are a deep distrust and loathing when I type: apt-get tiny-application and I'm then asked to install six hundred and twenty four other libraries ... Now, I love ubuntu - sure it is easy and easy is good .. right ... and I've been pretty much using Debian or Ubuntu on some machine, in some form ... since 1998 ... but .. I'm always getting into trouble with the package management system ... I'm always skimming around looking at the more obscure installed libraries thinking "gee, no one uses lib-foo-bar-zap" ... uninstalling it .. and then discovering just who indeed uses lib-foo-bar-zap ... So .. when it comes to my known style of system management ... easy isn't good .. it merely leads my inevitable tinkering into trouble. THUS - if I make the system "100% tinkering" .. well - I'll have to tow a straighter line .. if I want the darned thing to work! make sense? I did try gentoo once ... but ... I wasn't happy ... again probably due to my irresistible "lets tinker" nature... -Alex, who once wished that sudo included a breathalyzer check ... On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Eric Martin <freak4uxxx(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Might I inquire why you want to put yourself through that? It's a fun > experience but the system gets outdated very fast. If you're tried of > binary distros I would suggest Gentoo. It's a fun meta-distro that is > built from scratch but with a package management system. Also, if you > ever find the hankering to build your packages from scratch you can and > just tell portage so it doesn't clobber stuff. > > I'm very curious as to your motivations though so please share (if you > don't mind)

April 6, 2009