- WLUG - wlug.mailman3.com

CRT

by Mike Leo

thanks to all who responded to my request for a CRT. I have one now that will most likely work. If not, i'll ping those who responded and make arrangements. Happy New Year!

Jan. 7, 2008

Re: [Wlug] CRT's

by Stephen Daukas

Hi Mike! Only just got to my email... I live just near the center of Shrewsbury off of Spring St. Where are you? Steve On Jan 4, 2008 8:56 PM, Mike Leo <mleo963(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Stephen, where are you located? > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Stephen Daukas <scd(a)daukas.com> > To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 8:38:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Wlug] CRT's > > I two 17" Trinitons and one 17" ViewSonic... > > On Jan 4, 2008 7:11 PM, Mike Frysinger <vapier(a)gentoo.org> wrote: > > > On Friday 04 January 2008, Mike Leo wrote: > > > I have a young friend who is looking for a second/third monitor. > > > > > > Any one have any unused old crt's they are willing to part with? > > > -- Stephen C. Daukas Engineer, Geoscientist, Environmental Analyst ________________________________________________ - Please, before printing, think about the environment -

Jan. 5, 2008

Re: [Wlug] CRT's

by Casey Rankin

I have a large trinitron crt that I don't need any more.. I'm located in Boston now.. On Jan 5, 2008 4:03 PM, Andrew Robert <andrew.arobert(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I have an old 17 inch monitor if you want it > > On Jan 4, 2008 6:27 PM, Mike Leo <mleo963(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > I have a young friend who is looking for a second/third monitor. > > > > Any one have any unused old crt's they are willing to part with? > > > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wlug mailing list > > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > > > > > > -- > The Six Phases of a Project: > - Enthusiasm > - Disillusionment > - Panic > - Search for the Guilty > - Punishment of the Innocent > - Praise for non-participants > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > >

Jan. 5, 2008

Re: [Wlug] CRT's

by Andrew Robert

I have an old 17 inch monitor if you want it On Jan 4, 2008 6:27 PM, Mike Leo <mleo963(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > I have a young friend who is looking for a second/third monitor. > > Any one have any unused old crt's they are willing to part with? > > Thanks > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > -- The Six Phases of a Project: - Enthusiasm - Disillusionment - Panic - Search for the Guilty - Punishment of the Innocent - Praise for non-participants

Jan. 5, 2008

Re: [Wlug] CRT's

by Gary Hanley

I have a Dell CRT. 14", I think. You (or anyone) are welcome to it. My wife is going to make me get rid of it soon anyway as it has been taking up space for too long now. -- Gary Mike Leo wrote: > I have a young friend who is looking for a second/third monitor. > > Any one have any unused old crt's they are willing to part with? > > Thanks > Mike > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

Jan. 5, 2008

Re: [Wlug] CRT's

by Mike Leo

Stephen, where are you located? ----- Original Message ---- From: Stephen Daukas <scd(a)daukas.com> To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 8:38:42 PM Subject: Re: [Wlug] CRT's I two 17" Trinitons and one 17" ViewSonic... On Jan 4, 2008 7:11 PM, Mike Frysinger <vapier(a)gentoo.org> wrote: On Friday 04 January 2008, Mike Leo wrote: > I have a young friend who is looking for a second/third monitor. > > Any one have any unused old crt's they are willing to part with? i have at least one ive tried to get rid off ... pretty sure it's 17" dell trinitron crt and still works. -mike _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug -- Stephen C. Daukas Engineer, Geoscientist, Environmental Analyst ________________________________________________ - Please, before printing, think about the environment -

Jan. 5, 2008

Re: [Wlug] CRT's

by Stephen Daukas

I two 17" Trinitons and one 17" ViewSonic... On Jan 4, 2008 7:11 PM, Mike Frysinger <vapier(a)gentoo.org> wrote: > On Friday 04 January 2008, Mike Leo wrote: > > I have a young friend who is looking for a second/third monitor. > > > > Any one have any unused old crt's they are willing to part with? > > i have at least one ive tried to get rid off ... pretty sure it's 17" dell > trinitron crt and still works. > -mike > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > -- Stephen C. Daukas Engineer, Geoscientist, Environmental Analyst ________________________________________________ - Please, before printing, think about the environment -

Jan. 5, 2008

Re: [Wlug] CRT's

by Mike Frysinger

On Friday 04 January 2008, Mike Leo wrote: > I have a young friend who is looking for a second/third monitor. > > Any one have any unused old crt's they are willing to part with? i have at least one ive tried to get rid off ... pretty sure it's 17" dell trinitron crt and still works. -mike

Jan. 5, 2008

CRT's

by Mike Leo

I have a young friend who is looking for a second/third monitor. Any one have any unused old crt's they are willing to part with? Thanks Mike

Jan. 4, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Getting the Edimax ew-7108pcg working on Xubuntu 6.06 LTS

by John Stoffel

Adam> I found this card on newegg.com for cheap money and the Adam> company claimed Linux support, so I got it. So far, I have it Adam> working on a WEP test network, but the driver package does come Adam> with WPA-supplicant bits. I assume that works as well. Folks Adam> online claim it works out of the box on Ubuntu 7.10, but my Adam> laptop didn't do well with the newer Xubuntus, so I had to make Adam> do. Can you give more details on the laptop? And what kinds of issues you had with Ubuntu 7.x as well? I figure that might be the better solution here.... Adam> Note, out-of-the-box, the rt61 driver provided by Xubuntu 6.06 Adam> LTS throws a stack trace and can wedge your system. I found Adam> that you need to build the company's rt61 driver. Adam> Here was my procedure for 6.06 LTS: Adam> 1) Install gcc and friends,if you haven't already. Adam> 2) Update to the latest kernel packages. Adam> 3) Install the linux-header packages for your platform (I used the 386 Adam> packages). Adam> 4) Download the driver zip for the ew-7108pcg from the Edimax Adam> website's support area, unpack it, and the unpack the tar ball inside. Adam> 5) cd into the IS_Linux_STA_6x_D_1.1.1.0 directory Adam> 6) run make Adam> 7) Ignore all the compiler warnings ;) Adam> 9) run sudo make install Adam> 10) Add "alias ra0 rt61" to /etc/modules.conf or into your preferred Adam> location in /etc/modules.d if it wasn't automatically added. Adam> 11) Add correct bits to /etc/network/interfaces Adam> So, that being said (I am typing this email via the card now): Adam> 1) On boot, the card comes up, but does not go online. Ifconfig has Adam> configured the interface, but iwconfig shows no essid or key Adam> configured. Adam> 2) I opened the Applications->System->Networking tool. The tool shows Adam> the interface as active. I can "activate/deactivate", but likewise Adam> iwconfig shows no configuration. Adam> I can only bring the interface up via running "sudo ifup ra0". My Adam> wife's probably not going to go for that ;). Adam> Does anyone have any ideas about what plumbing I am missing to Adam> get automatic configuration? Sounds like you need to look in /etc/network/interfaces and make sure you've got stuff setup properly in there. But I'm guessing a bit since I don't run wireless on my debian box. What's the output of 'cat /etc/network/run/ifstate' before and after the 'ifup ra0 ' command? John

Jan. 4, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Getting the Edimax ew-7108pcg working on Xubuntu 6.06 LTS

by Keith Wright

> From: "Adam Keck" <ghostis(a)gmail.com> > > Thanks very much for your thoughtful response ;). Are you sure that's the correct emoticon? Sometimes people say ";)" when they mean ":-/" or "(;=)". > Regarding the sudo command, You said sudo, I didn't. > she uses this laptop for her academics and, thus, > expects it to "just work." I don't know what you mean by "just work". You say you have already downloaded drivers, compiled and installed, and modified /etc/modules.conf. What is the objection to adding to a boot-time shell script? I am not saying she should do it. You do it and don't tell. > On Jan 3, 2008 8:13 PM, Keith Wright <kwright(a)keithdiane.us> wrote: > > > From: "Adam Keck" <ghostis(a)gmail.com> > > > > > > I can only bring the interface up via running "sudo ifup ra0". My > > > wife's probably not going to go for that ;). > > > > but why would your wife object to you, Adam Keck > > putting "ifup ra0" in one of those shell files that > > get run by root when you boot? Like maybe you put it in /etc/rc.d/rc.local. -- Keith

Jan. 4, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Getting the Edimax ew-7108pcg working on Xubuntu 6.06 LTS

by Adam Keck

Hello Keith, Thanks very much for your thoughtful response ;). Regarding the sudo command, she uses this laptop for her academics and, thus, expects it to "just work." Xubuntu has been good at this thus far, so I was hoping more of the same. The better Linux does at "just working," the easier it is for me to keep Microsoft out of the house. -Adam On Jan 3, 2008 8:13 PM, Keith Wright <kwright(a)keithdiane.us> wrote: > > From: "Adam Keck" <ghostis(a)gmail.com> > > > > I can only bring the interface up via running "sudo ifup ra0". My > > wife's probably not going to go for that ;). > > If I were your boss, I would demand that you document all changes > to distribution defaults, but why would your wife object > to putting "ifup ra0" in one of those shell files that > get run by root when you boot? > > In other words, I have no idea what you are talking about, > or the answer to your question, but I can keep the conversation > going with stupid comments until somebody else comes along. > > > Does anyone have any ideas about what plumbing I am missing to get > > automatic configuration? > > Of course. If you want true, real, distinct, coherent, concrete, > clear, clever, or usable ideas... good luck! > > -- Keith > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >

Jan. 4, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Getting the Edimax ew-7108pcg working on Xubuntu 6.06 LTS

by Keith Wright

> From: "Adam Keck" <ghostis(a)gmail.com> > > I can only bring the interface up via running "sudo ifup ra0". My > wife's probably not going to go for that ;). If I were your boss, I would demand that you document all changes to distribution defaults, but why would your wife object to putting "ifup ra0" in one of those shell files that get run by root when you boot? In other words, I have no idea what you are talking about, or the answer to your question, but I can keep the conversation going with stupid comments until somebody else comes along. > Does anyone have any ideas about what plumbing I am missing to get > automatic configuration? Of course. If you want true, real, distinct, coherent, concrete, clear, clever, or usable ideas... good luck! -- Keith

Jan. 4, 2008

Getting the Edimax ew-7108pcg working on Xubuntu 6.06 LTS

by Adam Keck

Hello All, I found this card on newegg.com for cheap money and the company claimed Linux support, so I got it. So far, I have it working on a WEP test network, but the driver package does come with WPA-supplicant bits. I assume that works as well. Folks online claim it works out of the box on Ubuntu 7.10, but my laptop didn't do well with the newer Xubuntus, so I had to make do. Note, out-of-the-box, the rt61 driver provided by Xubuntu 6.06 LTS throws a stack trace and can wedge your system. I found that you need to build the company's rt61 driver. Here was my procedure for 6.06 LTS: 1) Install gcc and friends,if you haven't already. 2) Update to the latest kernel packages. 3) Install the linux-header packages for your platform (I used the 386 packages). 4) Download the driver zip for the ew-7108pcg from the Edimax website's support area, unpack it, and the unpack the tar ball inside. 5) cd into the IS_Linux_STA_6x_D_1.1.1.0 directory 6) run make 7) Ignore all the compiler warnings ;) 9) run sudo make install 10) Add "alias ra0 rt61" to /etc/modules.conf or into your preferred location in /etc/modules.d if it wasn't automatically added. 11) Add correct bits to /etc/network/interfaces So, that being said (I am typing this email via the card now): 1) On boot, the card comes up, but does not go online. Ifconfig has configured the interface, but iwconfig shows no essid or key configured. 2) I opened the Applications->System->Networking tool. The tool shows the interface as active. I can "activate/deactivate", but likewise iwconfig shows no configuration. I can only bring the interface up via running "sudo ifup ra0". My wife's probably not going to go for that ;). Does anyone have any ideas about what plumbing I am missing to get automatic configuration? Thanks! -Adam

Jan. 3, 2008

Re: [Wlug] Information for Linux newbies?

by William Smith

On Nov 18, 2007 12:14 AM, Andy Stewart <andystewart(a)comcast.net> wrote: > Hi Kevin, > > When I was a newbie, Linux live CDs didn't yet exist, but they do now! > > I find the Knoppix CD/DVD useful for testing a new piece of hardware > (like a laptop) to see if all of the pieces work with Linux. I believe > that the Ubuntu CDs can also boot up in a live mode. In this way, you > can try Linux without messing with your hard drive, and also see if your > hardware works with that distribution. With Fedora 8, there's also a Fedora Live CD. I tried it on my laptop. Works nicely, though it (like Ubuntu, when I had it installed) didn't see my built-in webcam at all. :( All else aside, I'm actually pleased to see the LiveCD for Fedora. I've been using Red Hat variants since the early 1990s, and I like to know what things look like before I install it. (For those that might be new to the term, Live CDs are handy for using Linux on systems that you can't install Linux on otherwise.) > Note that if something doesn't work with the live CD, that doesn't > necessarily mean it won't work with Linux at all, but demonstrating that > something *does* work is a good thing. Even then, many of the things that don't work out-of-the-box will work with a little research and poking. My webcam just isn't one of them, as far as i can tell. :\ -- Bill Smith Fall River, MA Charter Member of LOPSA

Dec. 29, 2007

Re: [Wlug] reboot problem - Update

by Gregory Avedissian

Folks asked for an update on this, so here it is. Original problem - Black screen on startup or reboot occurred about 25% of the time, right after the grub menu. No hard drive activity, no boot, no ssh. This problem has existed since I built the computer a year ago. Newer problem - Hard lockups, especially when the load was heavy. I first noticed this when I installed Gutsy on a spare partition. It also happened a few times in Etch, but I was using a custom realtime kernel when it happened. There were also a couple of spontaneous reboots. Hardware - ASUS M2V motherboard, Ath. X2 3800, Kingston RAM, Enermax PSU, some kind of GeForce 6200 with a fan that started getting noisy, Seagate drive, all about a year old. What I did - Replaced the vid card with a slightly older GeForce, and since then, the black screen has only occurred once or twice out of scores of reboots. Got a power supply tester, and the 5V rail read 5.4V one of the times I tested it. Contacted Enermax, and they told me to try a different power supply before I RMA'd mine. Got off the realtime kernel and went back to the stock Etch kernel. No more lockups in debian. Flashed the motherboard with the newest bios after reading that others were having lockup problems with this board. It didn't help. Got a new 350W SilverStone and put it in. Still getting lockups in Gutsy. I believe that the spontaneous reboots are a result of the relative placement of the power button and the wheeled leg of my office chair. I moved the computer back a few inches after I saw the two of them meet once. (Note for the interested builder - buttons on Coolermaster case stick out and require only a light touch. I just built a computer for a friend, and the buttons on the Antec case are recessed and not so easy to press in.) Put the Enermax back in, and everything seems to be fine as long as I stay away from Gutsy and the power button. Thanks again to everyone for their help. Greg

Dec. 18, 2007

REMINDER: Upcoming WLUG Meeting

by Andy Stewart

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 HI Everybody, Our next WLUG meeting will be on Wednesday, 12-dec-2007, at 7:00 PM in the Access Grid Room on the WPI campus in Worcester, MA USA. At this meeting, we'll have Dan Walsh from RedHat as our guest speaker. Dan will talk about SELinux. First, Dan will give a quick overview of SELinux, followed by a discussion of what's new with SELinux in Fedora 8. Dan will then hand out SELinux live CDs of Fedora 8, from which he will present how to write SELinux policy. This promises to be a great meeting that you won't want to miss. After the meeting, we'll head out for dinner at a local pizza restaurant. See ya then! Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHXeT5Hl0iXDssISsRAggmAJ0RwVvLuUuHMMZSElq5lt8hCh4lOACfQraL teVSJANE/lCW5eAlSSCXnSs= =ROZn -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Dec. 11, 2007

Re: [Wlug] ISP/Router/Modem Ethernet communications

by Mike Frysinger

On Monday 03 December 2007, kstratton(a)fastmail.us wrote: > It is looking like the solution is one of the following: > > 1) Buy a new DSL modem that sopports 10 and 100 base T (I think I saw > one at best buy, mine only supports 10 base T) > 2) Buy a router that I can put linux on so that I can configure the > router for 10 base T.this sounds like fun, but the likelyhood of > eventually breaking it is great. > 3) Buy both a new modem and router. I am confident that my equipment > predated the gigabit standard release, so this is not a totally > irrational solution (based on the autonegotiation standards). > 4) Ignore the issue and kickstart the connection again if the problem > re-occurs. > > My guess is on #4 for now, but #1 then #2 or #3 is still a possibility. > > Thank you everybody for your help. My biggest issue was not realizing > that this kind of autonegotiation issue is not very unusual. I REALLY > dislike it when I call tech support and my equipment is at fault. what kind of modem is it ? ive collected a few dsl modems that are just gathering dust in my basement. -mike

Dec. 4, 2007

Re: [Wlug] ISP/Router/Modem Ethernet communications

by kstratton＠fastmail.us

My initial problem was that I lost all connectivity with my router connected to the DSL modem. this was after my setup worked consistently for over 9 months. I was on the phone for over 4 hours total (2 sessions, the first one blamed it on an outage). The ISP technicians can "see" the modem when I was having this problem and confirmed my setup of the router. All the LEDs were positive (green). The ISP technician then asked for me to connect the modem directly to the computer. Various things were tried, including powering down the modem and computer. Still no connection (ping would not work). The last thing tried was to force the computer to talk to the mode at 1/2 duplex 10 base T and try to connect. This seemed to kickstart everything and everything now works with the router or directly to the PC. This may also seem to be a coincidence, but this problem happened about a week and a half after changing the terms on my DSL service (cheaper bundle). It is looking like the solution is one of the following: 1) Buy a new DSL modem that sopports 10 and 100 base T (I think I saw one at best buy, mine only supports 10 base T) 2) Buy a router that I can put linux on so that I can configure the router for 10 base T.this sounds like fun, but the likelyhood of eventually breaking it is great. 3) Buy both a new modem and router. I am confident that my equipment predated the gigabit standard release, so this is not a totally irrational solution (based on the autonegotiation standards). 4) Ignore the issue and kickstart the connection again if the problem re-occurs. My guess is on #4 for now, but #1 then #2 or #3 is still a possibility. Thank you everybody for your help. My biggest issue was not realizing that this kind of autonegotiation issue is not very unusual. I REALLY dislike it when I call tech support and my equipment is at fault. On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:18:24 -0500, "John Stoffel" <john(a)stoffel.org> said: > > kstratton> Thank you everybody for your replies. I now know that this > kstratton> autonegotiation issue can be potentially be a much bigger > kstratton> problem with 100 base T than I thought. Specifically, > kstratton> there is no defined mechanism in the spec to autonegotiate > kstratton> for 100 base T cards. If I actually have time for this, I > kstratton> guess I will have to find the spec and read it... > > Don't bother, it's not going to help you really. Just recognize that > you can see auto-neg issues and keep it in mind when trouble shooting > problems. > > kstratton> My network driver (windows) is a "NVIDIA nForce MCP > kstratton> Networking Controller". It is an integrated network > kstratton> connector on a HP pavilion. I do not know of a windows > kstratton> equivalent to lspci, so I cannot get the actual reported > kstratton> hardware rev. Maybe I have to get a good live CD distro. > > Hmm... I thought you were having auto-neg problems between your PC and > the cable modem, you never said you had a Router in there. At least I > don't remember and it's monday and I'm not good at memory... :] > > kstratton> In this case, resetting the cable modem did not fix the > kstratton> problem, although it may have fixed it in the past. > > kstratton> My router is a four port Linksys Router about 5 to 8 years > kstratton> old. My modem is a Speedstream 5280. I am sufficiently > kstratton> annoyed by this problem to consider buying a new router if > kstratton> this router has a force 10 base T option for the WAN. I am > kstratton> willing to listen to any suggestions. > > So just to rehash the problem, you are seeing problems between the > router and the cable modem, or between the router and the PC? > > Ok, so I just re-read your initial post and it sounds like you pulled > the Router out of the mix when debugging with your ISP. What was the > initial problem that had you remove the Router? What were the > symptoms? > > It could simply be that one of the hardware boxes is getting flaky and > starting to fail. But we need more information to really help. > > I've got an old Motorola Cable Modem (bought my own replacement) which > I'd be willing sell/lend if need be. I think it's a 3200 something or > other. Don't remember off hand. I'm with Charter, which might be an > issue. > > Good luck, > John > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug -- kstratton(a)fastmail.us

Dec. 4, 2007

Re: [Wlug] ISP/Router/Modem Ethernet communications

by John Stoffel

kstratton> Thank you everybody for your replies. I now know that this kstratton> autonegotiation issue can be potentially be a much bigger kstratton> problem with 100 base T than I thought. Specifically, kstratton> there is no defined mechanism in the spec to autonegotiate kstratton> for 100 base T cards. If I actually have time for this, I kstratton> guess I will have to find the spec and read it... Don't bother, it's not going to help you really. Just recognize that you can see auto-neg issues and keep it in mind when trouble shooting problems. kstratton> My network driver (windows) is a "NVIDIA nForce MCP kstratton> Networking Controller". It is an integrated network kstratton> connector on a HP pavilion. I do not know of a windows kstratton> equivalent to lspci, so I cannot get the actual reported kstratton> hardware rev. Maybe I have to get a good live CD distro. Hmm... I thought you were having auto-neg problems between your PC and the cable modem, you never said you had a Router in there. At least I don't remember and it's monday and I'm not good at memory... :] kstratton> In this case, resetting the cable modem did not fix the kstratton> problem, although it may have fixed it in the past. kstratton> My router is a four port Linksys Router about 5 to 8 years kstratton> old. My modem is a Speedstream 5280. I am sufficiently kstratton> annoyed by this problem to consider buying a new router if kstratton> this router has a force 10 base T option for the WAN. I am kstratton> willing to listen to any suggestions. So just to rehash the problem, you are seeing problems between the router and the cable modem, or between the router and the PC? Ok, so I just re-read your initial post and it sounds like you pulled the Router out of the mix when debugging with your ISP. What was the initial problem that had you remove the Router? What were the symptoms? It could simply be that one of the hardware boxes is getting flaky and starting to fail. But we need more information to really help. I've got an old Motorola Cable Modem (bought my own replacement) which I'd be willing sell/lend if need be. I think it's a 3200 something or other. Don't remember off hand. I'm with Charter, which might be an issue. Good luck, John

Dec. 3, 2007

Re: [Wlug] ISP/Router/Modem Ethernet communications

by Conner Finlay

I've got a Linksys WRT54GL which in my opinion is a great router for the price. I then flashed it with dd-wrt. Here is a list of routers which can support it. http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Supported_Devices -Conner On Dec 1, 2007 6:39 AM, <kstratton(a)fastmail.us> wrote: > Thank you everybody for your replies. I now know that this > autonegotiation issue can be potentially be a much bigger problem with > 100 base T than I thought. Specifically, there is no defined mechanism > in the spec to autonegotiate for 100 base T cards. If I actually have > time for this, I guess I will have to find the spec and read it... > > My network driver (windows) is a "NVIDIA nForce MCP Networking > Controller". It is an integrated network connector on a HP pavilion. I > do not know of a windows equivalent to lspci, so I cannot get the actual > reported hardware rev. Maybe I have to get a good live CD distro. > > In this case, resetting the cable modem did not fix the problem, > although it may have fixed it in the past. > > My router is a four port Linksys Router about 5 to 8 years old. My > modem is a Speedstream 5280. I am sufficiently annoyed by this problem > to consider buying a new router if this router has a force 10 base T > option for the WAN. I am willing to listen to any suggestions. > > > > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:29:17 -0500, "John Stoffel" <john(a)stoffel.org> > said: > > > > kstratton> I just went through some painful debug session(s) with my > > kstratton> ISP. For some reason, after forcing 10 base T half duplex > > kstratton> through my windows box directly to my modem (I do not > > kstratton> expect ISPs to support linux),everything suddenly worked > > kstratton> (after reconnection and re-enabling of course). > > > > Can you give more details on the cable modem box you're using and the > > PC as well? Such as what network card in the PC you are using? > > > > kstratton> How often does this kind of thing happen? I have seen this > > kstratton> kind of thing before only once before, and I was using an > > kstratton> old hub that only supported 10 base T, not a home router > > kstratton> that is supposed to autodetect the port type. I remember > > kstratton> that the modem only supports 10 base T, but I am not 100% > > kstratton> certain. > > > > Sun and Cisco were notirious for having problems figuring our > > autonegotiation on the Sun hme (Happy Meal Ethernet) cards. They'd > > end up 100Full on one side and 100 Half Duplex on the other. It would > > work, just very slowly... > > > > kstratton> Does anybody have an explanation of what most likely > > kstratton> happened? Do not hesitate to skimp on technical details or > > kstratton> references if is convenient. I desperately want to > > kstratton> understand what happened. -- > > > > Something didn't autonegotiate properly. Did you try powering off > > both devices and then powering them on starting with the cable box? > > > > Also, alot of Cable Companies lock the cable box to the first MAC > > (ethernet hardware address) they see coming over the link. So if you > > boot up with a PC, and then try to move to something else like a NAT > > box or a linux box acting as a NAT box, things can go wonky. > > > > Usually a hard reset of the Cablemodem will do the trick, but > > sometimes you need to contact the ISP and ask them to reset it for > > you. > > > > In your case, it really sounds like a problem with Autonegotiation. > > Some devices just don't do a good job, esp older equipment from before > > the Gigabit ethernet stage. > > > > Just to expand on Frank's email, the people who designed the Gigiabit > > Ethernet standard over Copper (802.xxx I can't remember) saw all the > > problems with the 100/10 devices and autonegotiation and explicity > > made AutoNeg part of the spec in a very well detailed way, so that > > these problems won't happen again. As a matter of fact, Gigabit ports > > are much smarter and don't require crossover cables either, you can > > just plug them into back to back, they figure out what's going on > > automatically and adjust. > > > > The joys of big ASICs! > > > > John > > _______________________________________________ > > Wlug mailing list > > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- > > kstratton(a)fastmail.us > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >

Dec. 1, 2007

Re: [Wlug] ISP/Router/Modem Ethernet communications

by kstratton＠fastmail.us

Thank you everybody for your replies. I now know that this autonegotiation issue can be potentially be a much bigger problem with 100 base T than I thought. Specifically, there is no defined mechanism in the spec to autonegotiate for 100 base T cards. If I actually have time for this, I guess I will have to find the spec and read it... My network driver (windows) is a "NVIDIA nForce MCP Networking Controller". It is an integrated network connector on a HP pavilion. I do not know of a windows equivalent to lspci, so I cannot get the actual reported hardware rev. Maybe I have to get a good live CD distro. In this case, resetting the cable modem did not fix the problem, although it may have fixed it in the past. My router is a four port Linksys Router about 5 to 8 years old. My modem is a Speedstream 5280. I am sufficiently annoyed by this problem to consider buying a new router if this router has a force 10 base T option for the WAN. I am willing to listen to any suggestions. On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:29:17 -0500, "John Stoffel" <john(a)stoffel.org> said: > > kstratton> I just went through some painful debug session(s) with my > kstratton> ISP. For some reason, after forcing 10 base T half duplex > kstratton> through my windows box directly to my modem (I do not > kstratton> expect ISPs to support linux),everything suddenly worked > kstratton> (after reconnection and re-enabling of course). > > Can you give more details on the cable modem box you're using and the > PC as well? Such as what network card in the PC you are using? > > kstratton> How often does this kind of thing happen? I have seen this > kstratton> kind of thing before only once before, and I was using an > kstratton> old hub that only supported 10 base T, not a home router > kstratton> that is supposed to autodetect the port type. I remember > kstratton> that the modem only supports 10 base T, but I am not 100% > kstratton> certain. > > Sun and Cisco were notirious for having problems figuring our > autonegotiation on the Sun hme (Happy Meal Ethernet) cards. They'd > end up 100Full on one side and 100 Half Duplex on the other. It would > work, just very slowly... > > kstratton> Does anybody have an explanation of what most likely > kstratton> happened? Do not hesitate to skimp on technical details or > kstratton> references if is convenient. I desperately want to > kstratton> understand what happened. -- > > Something didn't autonegotiate properly. Did you try powering off > both devices and then powering them on starting with the cable box? > > Also, alot of Cable Companies lock the cable box to the first MAC > (ethernet hardware address) they see coming over the link. So if you > boot up with a PC, and then try to move to something else like a NAT > box or a linux box acting as a NAT box, things can go wonky. > > Usually a hard reset of the Cablemodem will do the trick, but > sometimes you need to contact the ISP and ask them to reset it for > you. > > In your case, it really sounds like a problem with Autonegotiation. > Some devices just don't do a good job, esp older equipment from before > the Gigabit ethernet stage. > > Just to expand on Frank's email, the people who designed the Gigiabit > Ethernet standard over Copper (802.xxx I can't remember) saw all the > problems with the 100/10 devices and autonegotiation and explicity > made AutoNeg part of the spec in a very well detailed way, so that > these problems won't happen again. As a matter of fact, Gigabit ports > are much smarter and don't require crossover cables either, you can > just plug them into back to back, they figure out what's going on > automatically and adjust. > > The joys of big ASICs! > > John > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug -- kstratton(a)fastmail.us

Dec. 1, 2007

Re: [Wlug] ISP/Router/Modem Ethernet communications

by John Stoffel

kstratton> I just went through some painful debug session(s) with my kstratton> ISP. For some reason, after forcing 10 base T half duplex kstratton> through my windows box directly to my modem (I do not kstratton> expect ISPs to support linux),everything suddenly worked kstratton> (after reconnection and re-enabling of course). Can you give more details on the cable modem box you're using and the PC as well? Such as what network card in the PC you are using? kstratton> How often does this kind of thing happen? I have seen this kstratton> kind of thing before only once before, and I was using an kstratton> old hub that only supported 10 base T, not a home router kstratton> that is supposed to autodetect the port type. I remember kstratton> that the modem only supports 10 base T, but I am not 100% kstratton> certain. Sun and Cisco were notirious for having problems figuring our autonegotiation on the Sun hme (Happy Meal Ethernet) cards. They'd end up 100Full on one side and 100 Half Duplex on the other. It would work, just very slowly... kstratton> Does anybody have an explanation of what most likely kstratton> happened? Do not hesitate to skimp on technical details or kstratton> references if is convenient. I desperately want to kstratton> understand what happened. -- Something didn't autonegotiate properly. Did you try powering off both devices and then powering them on starting with the cable box? Also, alot of Cable Companies lock the cable box to the first MAC (ethernet hardware address) they see coming over the link. So if you boot up with a PC, and then try to move to something else like a NAT box or a linux box acting as a NAT box, things can go wonky. Usually a hard reset of the Cablemodem will do the trick, but sometimes you need to contact the ISP and ask them to reset it for you. In your case, it really sounds like a problem with Autonegotiation. Some devices just don't do a good job, esp older equipment from before the Gigabit ethernet stage. Just to expand on Frank's email, the people who designed the Gigiabit Ethernet standard over Copper (802.xxx I can't remember) saw all the problems with the 100/10 devices and autonegotiation and explicity made AutoNeg part of the spec in a very well detailed way, so that these problems won't happen again. As a matter of fact, Gigabit ports are much smarter and don't require crossover cables either, you can just plug them into back to back, they figure out what's going on automatically and adjust. The joys of big ASICs! John

Nov. 30, 2007

Re: [Wlug] ISP/Router/Modem Ethernet communications

by Frank Sweetser

kstratton(a)fastmail.us wrote: > I just went through some painful debug session(s) with my ISP. For some > reason, after forcing 10 base T half duplex through my windows box > directly to my modem (I do not expect ISPs to support linux),everything > suddenly worked (after reconnection and re-enabling of course). > > How often does this kind of thing happen? I have seen this kind of > thing before only once before, and I was using an old hub that only > supported 10 base T, not a home router that is supposed to autodetect > the port type. I remember that the modem only supports 10 base T, but I > am not 100% certain. > > Does anybody have an explanation of what most likely happened? Do not > hesitate to skimp on technical details or references if is convenient. > I desperately want to understand what happened. Actually, that sounds like it's a problem on the PC end. Here's why. Back when there was only 10 half, it was easy to figure out what speed and duplex the other end was running at - 10 half! With 100M ethernet appearing, though, you soon had dual speed cards on the market. Rather than having to configure each and every port explicitly, users wanted to be able to plug in and have the card just do the right thing. Luckily, the signaling was different enough between 10 and 100 that it was relatively straightforward for a 100M card to detect whether the other end was speaking in 10M or 100M, and shift speeds appropriately. This is called, simply enough, autosense. However, speed is only half the equation. Along with 100M ethernet came switches. Switches, by allowing for a pseudo-dedicated link per machine (as opposed to hubs, in which the bandwidth of all links was shared by all stations), introduced and entirely new operating mode - full duplex. Unlike speed, there is no reliable way to passively detect what duplex the other end is configured for. So, to solve this, and also to lay down a foundation for interoperability as future network speeds appeared, the autonegotiation protocol was developed. Essentially, as soon as a link is established, both ends send a few magic packets at each other advertising what speed and duplex combinations it supports. The two ends pick the highest performance option supported by both, switch to that operational mode, and go on their merry way. Even after all this, you'll still see devices appearing which only support 10 half, and don't bother to do autonegotiation. When a newer device that does support autonegotiation is plugged into such an older device, autonegotiation will (obviously) fail. The new end will then default to autodetection for the speed, and will always use half duplex. This is why forcing on end of a link to full duplex, and leaving the other end on auto, will virtually always result in a duplex mismatch, and a link that works, just with really, really crappy performance. Donald Becker used to have a paper floating around describing this in a little more detail. I can't find the original anymore, but this looks like a copy of the same info: http://www.negotiateddata.com/files/Bunch_Article_020095.pdf So in the scenario you described, where the other end is sitting fixed at 10 half, it would have been up to your computer to gracefully fail autonegotiation, and use autosense to configure the link at 10 half. Sadly, such bugs, where chipset manufacturers assume that everyone else out there will always support autonegotiation, are not unheard of these days. -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu | For every problem, there is a solution that WPI Senior Network Engineer | is simple, elegant, and wrong. - HL Mencken GPG fingerprint = 6174 1257 129E 0D21 D8D4 E8A3 8E39 29E3 E2E8 8CEC

Nov. 30, 2007

ISP/Router/Modem Ethernet communications

by kstratton＠fastmail.us

I just went through some painful debug session(s) with my ISP. For some reason, after forcing 10 base T half duplex through my windows box directly to my modem (I do not expect ISPs to support linux),everything suddenly worked (after reconnection and re-enabling of course). How often does this kind of thing happen? I have seen this kind of thing before only once before, and I was using an old hub that only supported 10 base T, not a home router that is supposed to autodetect the port type. I remember that the modem only supports 10 base T, but I am not 100% certain. Does anybody have an explanation of what most likely happened? Do not hesitate to skimp on technical details or references if is convenient. I desperately want to understand what happened. -- kstratton(a)fastmail.us

Nov. 30, 2007

Solaris automounter

by vze284qe＠verizon.net

Hi All, At work I have a SunFire v245 (Sparc) running SunOs 5.10, which I guess is Solaris 10. When I put a CD in the drive, it doesn't get mounted. I checked to see if 'vold' was running and it was. What else should I check for? I'm not too familiar with Solaris, so any help is appreciated. TIA, -Chuck

Nov. 29, 2007

Any XMl-types out there?

by Stephen Daukas

Hello Everyone! So, I have to teach myself myself XML, XSL, et al., for work... (The VB stuff is in the background for now!) I started playing with XML yesterday, and have gotten pretty far along. But... I have to deal with M$-generated XML files that looks like the following (I added the first two lines for display in a browser): <?xml version="1.0"?> <?xml-stylesheet type="text/xsl" href="SOURCES.xsl"?> <xml xmlns:s='uuid:BDC6E3F0-6DA3-11d1-A2A3-00AA00C14882' xmlns:dt='uuid:C2F41010-65B3-11d1-A29F-00AA00C14882' xmlns:rs='urn:schemas-microsoft-com:rowset' xmlns:z='#RowsetSchema'> <s:Schema id='RowsetSchema'> <s:ElementType name='row' content='eltOnly'> <s:AttributeType name='ID305B' rs:number='1' rs:nullable='true' rs:maydefer='true' rs:writeunknown='true'> <s:datatype dt:type='string' dt:maxLength='50'/> </s:AttributeType> [snip] <s:extends type='rs:rowbase'/> </s:ElementType> </s:Schema> <rs:data> <z:row ID305B='MA11002' CYCLE='2002' USE_ID='537' CAUSE_ID='226' SOURCE_ID='180' CONFIRMED='N'/> [~11,000 lines snipped] So, I wrote the following SOURCES.xsl file to display this beast in a browser (it uses recursion): <?xml version='1.0'?> <xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform" xmlns:rs='urn:schemas-microsoft-com:rowset' xmlns:z='#RowsetSchema' version="1.0"> <xsl:template match="/"> <HTML> <BODY topmargin="0" leftmargin="0"> <xsl:apply-templates select="/xml/rs:data"/> </BODY> </HTML> </xsl:template> <xsl:key name="rows-by-AU" match="z:row" use="@ID305B" /> <xsl:template match="z:row"> <xsl:apply-templates select="key('rows-by-AU', ID305B)" /> <div AU_ID="{ID305B}"> <xsl:apply-templates select="key('rows-by-AU', ID305B)" /> <div USE_ID="{CYCLE}"> <div USE_ID="{USE_ID}"> <xsl:value-of select="@ID305B"/> (<xsl:value-of select="@CYCLE"/>): <xsl:apply-templates select="key('rows-by-AU', USE_ID)"/> <xsl:value-of select="@USE_ID"/> - <xsl:value-of select="@CAUSE_ID"/> - <xsl:value-of select="@SOURCE_ID"/> </div> </div> </div> </xsl:template> </xsl:stylesheet> And it works (surprised the hell out of me)! But now I'm having the hardest time figuring out how to format this the way I'd like. This is how it currently looks in the browser: MA11002 (2002): 537 - 226 - 180 MA11002 (2002): 537 - 448 - 140 MA11002 (2002): 538 - 226 - 180 MA11002 (2002): 538 - 413 - 140 MA11002 (2002): 538 - 413 - 177 MA11002 (2002): 539 - 226 - 180 MA11002 (2002): 539 - 413 - 140 MA11002 (2002): 541 - 226 - 180 MA11002 (2002): 541 - 478 - 140 MA11002 (2002): 541 - 413 - 140 MA11018 (2002): 538 - 413 - 140 MA11018 (2002): 539 - 413 - 140 MA11018 (2002): 541 - 413 - 140 MA11019 (2002): 537 - 312 - 140 MA11019 (2002): 538 - 312 - 140 MA11019 (2002): 539 - 312 - 140 MA11019 (2002): 541 - 312 - 140 [... other IDs in between 2002 and 2008 ...] MA11002 (2008): 537 - 226 - 180 MA11002 (2008): 537 - 478 - 92 MA11002 (2008): 537 - 312 - 156 [... thousands of additional IDs ...] And I'd like the output to look something like: MA11002 (2002): 537 - 226 - 180 - 448 - 140 538 - 226 - 180 - 413 - 140 - 177 539 - 226 - 180 - 413 - 140 MA11002 (2008): 537 - 226 - 180 - 478 - 92 - 312 - 156 [...] So, things would need to be grouped by ID305B and CYCLE, then by USE_ID, then by CAUSE_ID, then by SOURCE_ID. But, I'd even settle for output that looks like: MA11002 (2002): 537 - 226 - 180 MA11002 (2002): 537 - 448 - 140 MA11002 (2002): 538 - 226 - 180 MA11002 (2002): 538 - 413 - 140 MA11002 (2002): 538 - 413 - 177 MA11002 (2002): 539 - 226 - 180 MA11002 (2002): 539 - 413 - 140 MA11002 (2002): 541 - 226 - 180 MA11002 (2002): 541 - 478 - 140 MA11002 (2002): 541 - 413 - 140 MA11002 (2008): 537 - 226 - 180 MA11002 (2008): 537 - 478 - 92 MA11002 (2008): 537 - 312 - 156 [... thousands of additional IDs ...] where the IDs from the two different years are adjacent to one another... I believe this will involve much pain and suffering while I try to figure out such things as XML nodes, grouping, sorting, and the like... But, I'm hoping someone will look at this and say "boy Daukas, that's easy... just do this, and then that, and voila - your done!". Anyone? Anyone? ;-) Thanks in advance for any help! Steve

Nov. 28, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Information for Linux newbies?

by Eric Martin

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kevin Harrington wrote: > As i mentioned at the meeting this past week I am going to be > giving a seminar for linux newbies and would like to pull from > people that know better then i do on what i should teach people. > What i would like to know is: What are some things that you wish > you had known as a newbie? Think back to your very first linux > install and any short-cuts, tips, tricks, and gatcha's that would > make peoples first experience easier. There is a lot of windows > resentment after the slow trainwreck that is vista, so lets see if > we can get a few new converts! My biggest thing would be to explain to people (at all levels) how to do what they are currently doing. Firefox for browsing, OO.o for Office stuff, gimp for photoshop, etc. I also agree with Tim in pitching to your audience, and Andy has a great point with making sure stuff works via LiveCDs. When I was a newbie I just wanted to read books on all the stuff. If you have some people like that, I'd point them to their distro docs / google. HTH Eric -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHSPXDaiVxdKlBO58RAp4RAJ9l/162tA/6wqSYrRMx+kbdCh9ipACfYrM8 3gkLyp8yT/viUpXknRVdgy8= =PshY -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Nov. 25, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Xinerama issues with Fedora Core 8...

by Tim Keller

Hey that fixed it! Thanks! Tim. On 11/20/07, Chuck Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote: > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 10:26:24AM -0500, Tim Keller wrote: > > Section "Device" > > Identifier "Videocard0" > > Driver "radeon" > > Option "Monitor-VGA-0" > > Option "Monitor-DVI-0" > > BusID "PCI:1:9:0" > > EndSection > > You forgot the second argument to the Montior- options here. > > Section "Device" > Identifier "Videocard0" > Driver "radeon" > Option "Monitor-VGA-0" "first" > Option "Monitor-DVI-0" "second" > BusID "PCI:1:9:0" > EndSection > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- I am leary of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Nov. 21, 2007

initrd.img file

by vze284qe＠verizon.net

Hello, I built a custom "gutsy gibbon" kernel, but I can't find the corresponding initrd.img file. There's a link in / that looks like this: initrd.img-> boot/initrd.img-2.6.22-generic. Shouldn't there be a new initrd.img file that was created when I built the new kernel or am I missing something? TIA, -- -Chuck

Nov. 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Xinerama issues with Fedora Core 8...

by Chuck Anderson

On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 10:26:24AM -0500, Tim Keller wrote: > Section "Device" > Identifier "Videocard0" > Driver "radeon" > Option "Monitor-VGA-0" > Option "Monitor-DVI-0" > BusID "PCI:1:9:0" > EndSection You forgot the second argument to the Montior- options here. Section "Device" Identifier "Videocard0" Driver "radeon" Option "Monitor-VGA-0" "first" Option "Monitor-DVI-0" "second" BusID "PCI:1:9:0" EndSection

Nov. 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Xinerama issues with Fedora Core 8...

by Tim Keller

Actually, I found *another* radeon card that has two inputs and I followed your instructions and now I have cloned monitors... so I'm going in the right direction... How do I unclone them? Thanks, Tim. BTW... here is my xorg.conf file for reference... # Xorg configuration created by system-config-display Section "ServerLayout" Identifier "Duel head single card setup" Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" EndSection Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Keyboard0" Driver "kbd" Option "XkbModel" "pc105" Option "XkbLayout" "us+inet" EndSection Section "Device" Identifier "Videocard0" Driver "radeon" Option "Monitor-VGA-0" Option "Monitor-DVI-0" BusID "PCI:1:9:0" EndSection Section "Monitor" Identifier "first" EndSection Section "Monitor" Identifier "second" Option "RightOf" "first" EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "Videocard0" Monitor "first" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Virtual 2560 1024 Depth 24 EndSubSection EndSection On Nov 19, 2007 4:06 PM, Chuck Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 19, 2007 at 03:25:19PM -0500, Tim Keller wrote: > > So... if I'm reading this right... I'm stuck then... since I have > monitors > > on separate video cards. > > > > I know it's cool that xrandr can do all this funky stuff, but I'd just > be > > happy to keep existing functionality. > > > > What are my options now... downgrade my X server? > > I guess so... good luck getting an older Xorg to run on Fedora 8. > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- I am leary of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Nov. 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] initrd.img file

by Jeff Moyer

vze284qe(a)verizon.net writes: > Hello, > > I built a custom "gutsy gibbon" kernel, but I can't find the > corresponding initrd.img file. There's a link in / that looks like this: > initrd.img-> boot/initrd.img-2.6.22-generic. > > Shouldn't there be a new initrd.img file that was created when I built > the new kernel or am I missing something? I'm not sure what process you used to build your kernel, but it's not uncommon to have to build the initrd yourself. mkinitrd /boot/initrd-2.6.X-mumble.img 2.6.X-mumble Cheers, Jeff

Nov. 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] initrd.img file

by Gregory Avedissian

Chuck wrote: > Hello, > > I built a custom "gutsy gibbon" kernel, but I can't find the > corresponding initrd.img file. There's a link in / that looks like this: > initrd.img-> boot/initrd.img-2.6.22-generic. > > Shouldn't there be a new initrd.img file that was created when I built > the new kernel or am I missing something? > > TIA, Yes, there should be a new initrd.img after you install the new linux-image.deb file that you created. Did you get a vmlinuz link to the correct kernel image, or is that still pointing to the generic kernel? I'm assuming you did this the debian/ubuntu way, and ran a command that looked something like this - make-kpkg -initrd --revision=ck12 kernel_image kernel_headers modules_image That should create some .deb files in the parent directory. Then you use 'dpkg -i' to install those debs, and you should end up with new links for vmlinuz and initrd.img. If you did everything right, and it still doesn't work, I'm not sure what to say. Did you check the ubuntu forums to see if others are having the same problem? Greg

Nov. 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] initrd.img file

by Karl Hiramoto

vze284qe(a)verizon.net wrote: > Hello, > > I built a custom "gutsy gibbon" kernel, but I can't find the > corresponding initrd.img file. There's a link in / that looks like this: > initrd.img-> boot/initrd.img-2.6.22-generic. > > Shouldn't there be a new initrd.img file that was created when I built > the new kernel or am I missing something? > > TIA, > If you built all of your necessary drivers to boot the machine into the kernel (not as modules) you don't need a initial ramdisk. Just set your grub to point to the kernel image. --karl

Nov. 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Robert Schwein

I'm not inclined to agree with the herd on this. I've deployed SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop into some businesses and three campuses of a school system. Xen was part of the distro (an important consideration) so I also loaded XP on the boxes that needed to run Windows apps. None of this dual boot stuff. They've called Novell's tech support on occasion and their feedback to me has been very positive. They didn't have to come back to me for problems. Candidly, I found this Linux distro a lot easier to integrate into a MAC (OS9 and OS-X) environment; that also was an important consideration. Just my experience from the trenches. Bob Greater Worcester Land Trust wrote: > It has been a while. > > I tried getting our nonprofit (Worcester land conservation) to adopt Linux > some years back. > Problem I had back then was weak graphic options, publisher options, Quicken > options, and a lack of a good answer to running ArcGIS. > I was beaten back into M$. > > I want another crack at this. > > I am looking to take a spare laptop and install a Linux OS and OS apps. > Previously, some years back, I used to use what are now Mandriva Linux > installs. > > Coming back to this I see that there are dozens and dozens of options these > days. > > What, if any, of the options do the WLUG folk prefer/recommend. > > Thanks so much, > > Colin > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >

Nov. 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Xinerama issues with Fedora Core 8...

by Jamie Guinan

Can you downgrade the individual driver(s)? See this thread from this morning, http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2007-November/030311.html -Jamie On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Tim Keller wrote: > So... if I'm reading this right... I'm stuck then... since I have monitors > on separate video cards. > > I know it's cool that xrandr can do all this funky stuff, but I'd just be > happy to keep existing functionality. > > What are my options now... downgrade my X server? > > On Nov 19, 2007 1:34 PM, Chuck Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2007 at 01:07:54PM -0500, Tim Keller wrote: > > > As far as I can tell... Xinerama support is totally borked in Fedora > > Core > > > 8. Has anybody come across any solutions? > > > > Xinerama is no longer supported in Xorg. But not to fear! It has > > been replaced by a new, dynamic method of doing dual-head with the > > XRandR extension. Unfortunately, neither the Release Notes nor the > > system-config-display tool have taken these changes into account. > > Also, this won't work with multiple separate video cards, only single > > video cards with multiple output on them. The fact that the X server > > segfaults when configured with Xinerama is a bug. > > > > You can turn on/off and configure multiple displays all dynamically > > using the xrandr command. Try this to display the available outputs > > while the X server is running: > > > > xrandr > > > > To configure a specific output, try these commands: > > > > xrandr --output DVI-1 --auto > > > > Or: > > > > xrandr --output DVI-1 --mode 1024x768 > > > > To configure dual-head (NOTE: You have to pre-configure the maximum > > combined virtual resolution you want to use in xorg.conf first, as > > specified below): > > > > xrandr --output DVI-1 --right-of DVI-0 > > > > This is nice because it means you can dynamically set up dual-head for > > an external VGA port on a laptop going to an LCD projector, for > > example. The internal LCD and external VGA could run at different > > resolutions too. > > > > For more fun, you can play with rotating screen images. > > > > You can also configure this in xorg.conf. The key differences from > > traditional multi-head and Xinerama are that you only use a single > > Screen in your ServerLayout section: > > > > Section "ServerLayout" > > Identifier "new dual-head configuration" > > Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 > > InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" > > EndSection > > > > Then refer to multiple monitors in the Device section. Here the > > format is Option "Monitor-<actual-monitor-id-from-xrandr>" > > "<monitor-identifier>" > > > > Section "Device" > > Identifier "Videocard0" > > Driver "radeon" > > Option "Monitor-DVI-0" "first" > > Option "Monitor-DVI-1" "second" > > EndSection > > > > Then specify the multiple Monitor sections themselves, using the > > monitor-identifiers specified above, with the placement options > > RightOf or LeftOf: > > > > Section "Monitor" > > Identifier "first" > > EndSection > > > > Section "Monitor" > > Identifier "second" > > Option "RightOf" "first" > > EndSection > > > > And then of course the single screen section. Note that you MUST > > specify the Virtual resolution as the sum of the resolutions of the > > multiple monitors you want to use (either horizontally or vertically, > > depending on your preferred monitor orientation). So below I have > > specified Virtual 3200 1200 so that I can place two 1600x1200 monitors > > side-by-side. The Monitor "first" is there just to satisfy the > > requirement for a Monitor to be specified--you don't put both monitors > > here. > > > > Section "Screen" > > Identifier "Screen0" > > Device "Videocard0" > > Monitor "first" > > DefaultDepth 24 > > SubSection "Display" > > Viewport 0 0 > > Virtual 3200 1200 > > Depth 24 > > Modes "1600x1200" "1600x1024" "1440x900" "1400x1050" > > "1360x768" "1280x1024" "1280x960" "1280x800" "1280x720" "1152x864" > > "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > > EndSubSection > > EndSection > > _______________________________________________ > > Wlug mailing list > > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > > > > > -- > I am leary of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their > constituents as "consumers". >

Nov. 19, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Xinerama issues with Fedora Core 8...

by Chuck Anderson

On Mon, Nov 19, 2007 at 03:25:19PM -0500, Tim Keller wrote: > So... if I'm reading this right... I'm stuck then... since I have monitors > on separate video cards. > > I know it's cool that xrandr can do all this funky stuff, but I'd just be > happy to keep existing functionality. > > What are my options now... downgrade my X server? I guess so... good luck getting an older Xorg to run on Fedora 8.

Nov. 19, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Xinerama issues with Fedora Core 8...

by Tim Keller

So... if I'm reading this right... I'm stuck then... since I have monitors on separate video cards. I know it's cool that xrandr can do all this funky stuff, but I'd just be happy to keep existing functionality. What are my options now... downgrade my X server? On Nov 19, 2007 1:34 PM, Chuck Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 19, 2007 at 01:07:54PM -0500, Tim Keller wrote: > > As far as I can tell... Xinerama support is totally borked in Fedora > Core > > 8. Has anybody come across any solutions? > > Xinerama is no longer supported in Xorg. But not to fear! It has > been replaced by a new, dynamic method of doing dual-head with the > XRandR extension. Unfortunately, neither the Release Notes nor the > system-config-display tool have taken these changes into account. > Also, this won't work with multiple separate video cards, only single > video cards with multiple output on them. The fact that the X server > segfaults when configured with Xinerama is a bug. > > You can turn on/off and configure multiple displays all dynamically > using the xrandr command. Try this to display the available outputs > while the X server is running: > > xrandr > > To configure a specific output, try these commands: > > xrandr --output DVI-1 --auto > > Or: > > xrandr --output DVI-1 --mode 1024x768 > > To configure dual-head (NOTE: You have to pre-configure the maximum > combined virtual resolution you want to use in xorg.conf first, as > specified below): > > xrandr --output DVI-1 --right-of DVI-0 > > This is nice because it means you can dynamically set up dual-head for > an external VGA port on a laptop going to an LCD projector, for > example. The internal LCD and external VGA could run at different > resolutions too. > > For more fun, you can play with rotating screen images. > > You can also configure this in xorg.conf. The key differences from > traditional multi-head and Xinerama are that you only use a single > Screen in your ServerLayout section: > > Section "ServerLayout" > Identifier "new dual-head configuration" > Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 > InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" > EndSection > > Then refer to multiple monitors in the Device section. Here the > format is Option "Monitor-<actual-monitor-id-from-xrandr>" > "<monitor-identifier>" > > Section "Device" > Identifier "Videocard0" > Driver "radeon" > Option "Monitor-DVI-0" "first" > Option "Monitor-DVI-1" "second" > EndSection > > Then specify the multiple Monitor sections themselves, using the > monitor-identifiers specified above, with the placement options > RightOf or LeftOf: > > Section "Monitor" > Identifier "first" > EndSection > > Section "Monitor" > Identifier "second" > Option "RightOf" "first" > EndSection > > And then of course the single screen section. Note that you MUST > specify the Virtual resolution as the sum of the resolutions of the > multiple monitors you want to use (either horizontally or vertically, > depending on your preferred monitor orientation). So below I have > specified Virtual 3200 1200 so that I can place two 1600x1200 monitors > side-by-side. The Monitor "first" is there just to satisfy the > requirement for a Monitor to be specified--you don't put both monitors > here. > > Section "Screen" > Identifier "Screen0" > Device "Videocard0" > Monitor "first" > DefaultDepth 24 > SubSection "Display" > Viewport 0 0 > Virtual 3200 1200 > Depth 24 > Modes "1600x1200" "1600x1024" "1440x900" "1400x1050" > "1360x768" "1280x1024" "1280x960" "1280x800" "1280x720" "1152x864" > "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > EndSection > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- I am leary of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Nov. 19, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Information for Linux newbies?

by Brian A. Dewhirst

One of the most basic things that I had to learn with ubuntu was how to access the support which exists... and there is a lot of it on the web. Googling "howto ubuntu FOO" can kill half of my problems in the first ten hits. Synaptic and the Update manager etc. are also key. On Nov 19, 2007 1:32 PM, Tim Keller <turbofx(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Kevin, > > I guess the question I would first ask is: "What's the technical > inclinations of the people you're going to be teaching?". > > If their geeks like us, then I'd go into using package managers and I'd talk > about the nitty gritty stuff. > > If their not geeks, then you need to take a different tact. Instead of > talking about linux as an operating system and extolling the virtues of open > source, instead talk about the applications that are available on linux and > how they stack up to what their already using. > > The games question is a sticky one... there are lots of cool games for > linux, any particular genre you're interested in? > > > > > On Nov 18, 2007 12:01 AM, Kevin Harrington < mad.hephaestus(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > As i mentioned at the meeting this past week I am going to be giving a > > seminar for linux newbies and would like to pull from people that > > know better then i do on what i should teach people. What i would like > > to know is: What are some things that you wish you had known as a > > newbie? Think back to your very first linux install and any > > short-cuts, tips, tricks, and gatcha's that would make peoples first > > experience easier. There is a lot of windows resentment after the slow > > trainwreck that is vista, so lets see if we can get a few new > > converts! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. one of the big concerns for a few people that i have talked to > > has been games, if anyone has a list of new-ish games that work or any > > tips specific to making the most recent generation work under linux, > > that would make things much easier ;) > > _______________________________________________ > > Wlug mailing list > > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > > > > > -- > I am leary of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their > constituents as "consumers". > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > >

Nov. 19, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Xinerama issues with Fedora Core 8...

by Chuck Anderson

On Mon, Nov 19, 2007 at 01:07:54PM -0500, Tim Keller wrote: > As far as I can tell... Xinerama support is totally borked in Fedora Core > 8. Has anybody come across any solutions? Xinerama is no longer supported in Xorg. But not to fear! It has been replaced by a new, dynamic method of doing dual-head with the XRandR extension. Unfortunately, neither the Release Notes nor the system-config-display tool have taken these changes into account. Also, this won't work with multiple separate video cards, only single video cards with multiple output on them. The fact that the X server segfaults when configured with Xinerama is a bug. You can turn on/off and configure multiple displays all dynamically using the xrandr command. Try this to display the available outputs while the X server is running: xrandr To configure a specific output, try these commands: xrandr --output DVI-1 --auto Or: xrandr --output DVI-1 --mode 1024x768 To configure dual-head (NOTE: You have to pre-configure the maximum combined virtual resolution you want to use in xorg.conf first, as specified below): xrandr --output DVI-1 --right-of DVI-0 This is nice because it means you can dynamically set up dual-head for an external VGA port on a laptop going to an LCD projector, for example. The internal LCD and external VGA could run at different resolutions too. For more fun, you can play with rotating screen images. You can also configure this in xorg.conf. The key differences from traditional multi-head and Xinerama are that you only use a single Screen in your ServerLayout section: Section "ServerLayout" Identifier "new dual-head configuration" Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" EndSection Then refer to multiple monitors in the Device section. Here the format is Option "Monitor-<actual-monitor-id-from-xrandr>" "<monitor-identifier>" Section "Device" Identifier "Videocard0" Driver "radeon" Option "Monitor-DVI-0" "first" Option "Monitor-DVI-1" "second" EndSection Then specify the multiple Monitor sections themselves, using the monitor-identifiers specified above, with the placement options RightOf or LeftOf: Section "Monitor" Identifier "first" EndSection Section "Monitor" Identifier "second" Option "RightOf" "first" EndSection And then of course the single screen section. Note that you MUST specify the Virtual resolution as the sum of the resolutions of the multiple monitors you want to use (either horizontally or vertically, depending on your preferred monitor orientation). So below I have specified Virtual 3200 1200 so that I can place two 1600x1200 monitors side-by-side. The Monitor "first" is there just to satisfy the requirement for a Monitor to be specified--you don't put both monitors here. Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "Videocard0" Monitor "first" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Virtual 3200 1200 Depth 24 Modes "1600x1200" "1600x1024" "1440x900" "1400x1050" "1360x768" "1280x1024" "1280x960" "1280x800" "1280x720" "1152x864" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection

Nov. 19, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Information for Linux newbies?

by Tim Keller

Kevin, I guess the question I would first ask is: "What's the technical inclinations of the people you're going to be teaching?". If their geeks like us, then I'd go into using package managers and I'd talk about the nitty gritty stuff. If their not geeks, then you need to take a different tact. Instead of talking about linux as an operating system and extolling the virtues of open source, instead talk about the applications that are available on linux and how they stack up to what their already using. The games question is a sticky one... there are lots of cool games for linux, any particular genre you're interested in? On Nov 18, 2007 12:01 AM, Kevin Harrington <mad.hephaestus(a)gmail.com> wrote: > As i mentioned at the meeting this past week I am going to be giving a > seminar for linux newbies and would like to pull from people that > know better then i do on what i should teach people. What i would like > to know is: What are some things that you wish you had known as a > newbie? Think back to your very first linux install and any > short-cuts, tips, tricks, and gatcha's that would make peoples first > experience easier. There is a lot of windows resentment after the slow > trainwreck that is vista, so lets see if we can get a few new > converts! > > > > > > > > P.S. one of the big concerns for a few people that i have talked to > has been games, if anyone has a list of new-ish games that work or any > tips specific to making the most recent generation work under linux, > that would make things much easier ;) > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- I am leary of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Nov. 19, 2007

Xinerama issues with Fedora Core 8...

by Tim Keller

Hey Gang, I had a perfectly working Fedora Core 6 system and I had to go mess things up... I backed up my whole system and did a clean install of Fedora Core 8, only to find that my >old< xorg.conf config doesn't work anymore... I was able to get a config finally working, but only on a single monitor. Here's my setup: Screen 1: DELL LCD panel connected to an onboard AGP intel video card Screen 2: DELL LCD panel connected to a PCI ATI Radeon video card Now, I have config files that'll drive one or the other, but not both. The moment I enable Xinerama, the X server crashes with a signal 11. As far as I can tell... Xinerama support is totally borked in Fedora Core 8. Has anybody come across any solutions? Thanks, Tim. -- I am leary of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Nov. 19, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Lee Keyser-Allen

Colin, No need to apologize. It may help you to understand what Parallels does, though, so you can figure out whether it's appropriate for you. The first piece of information that may be helpful is that, while it was originally for the Mac, and its best supported platform is still the Mac, it can run on both Windows and Linux. What Parallels (and software like it) does is to create a virtual computer that can run on your currently installed OS. VMWare is (I think) the commercial pioneer in this field, and is perhaps still the most well known. What this means, in practice, though is that you are not really getting away from Windows, since you are actually running a full copy of windows in its own sandbox. Think of it as running a dual-boot machine, except that you don't have to reboot your native OS to start running the 'Virtual' one. The advantage of this is that you can run virtually *any* windows app (including most games ... although the performance can suffer) in your Linux (or NT/XP or Mac) machine. Generally speaking, however, this is not really a final solution for most people. You still are running windows, and as such must pay for the license and deal with the flakiness. It is sometimes a reasonable interim step when you have applications that simply do not play well (or at all) on Linux. There are also side-benefits with this sort of setup, involving easily saving and restoring configurations and operating environments, and from what I've seen of Parallels, the nested OS is still pretty responsive (this is in sharp contrast to the first time I ran VMWare about 7 years ago ... it was not fast, although it was *very* cool :) ) I hope that that is a (relatively) clear explanation of how that works. Feel free to e-mail me on or off list if you have any other questions. Cheers, Lee On Nov 17, 2007 10:59 PM, Colin Novick <c-novick-1(a)alumni.uchicago.edu> wrote: > Apologies. Deepest even. > > Before anyone needs to chastise me I looked it up and OS X is more Next and > other sources than Linux per se. > > Apparently Parallels on OS X will run Win and Lin, but the underlying OS is > OS X and does not imply that ArcGIS would be stably emulated by a Linux > machine emulating Win. > > Sorry. > > Hope not to have too terribly offended in my ignorance. > > Colin > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > -- Lee Keyser-Allen (lkeyser(a)alum.wpi.edu)

Nov. 19, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Richard Klein

On Nov 17, 2007 10:59 PM, Colin Novick <c-novick-1(a)alumni.uchicago.edu> wrote: > > Before anyone needs to chastise me I looked it up and OS X is more Next and > other sources than Linux per se. Not to chastise you, but I wanted a definitive answer, so I turned to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mac_OS_X#Development_outside_of_App…) "NeXTSTEP was based on the Mach kernel and BSD, an implementation of Unix dating back to the 1970s. Perhaps more remarkably, it featured an object-oriented programming framework based on the Objective-C language. This environment is known today in the Mac world as Cocoa. It also supported the innovative Enterprise Objects Framework database access layer and WebObjects application server development environment, among other notable features. All but abandoning the idea of an operating system, NeXT managed to maintain a business selling WebObjects and consulting services, but was never a commercial success. NeXTSTEP underwent an evolution into OPENSTEP which separated the object layers from the operating system below, allowing it to run with less modification on other platforms. OPENSTEP was, for a short time, adopted by Sun Microsystems. However, by this point, a number of other companies — notably Apple, IBM, Microsoft, and even Sun itself — were claiming they would soon be releasing similar object-oriented operating systems and development tools of their own. (Some of these efforts, such as Taligent, did not fully come to fruition; others, like Java, gained widespread adoption.) Following an announcement on December 20, 1996,[1] on February 4, 1997 Apple Computer acquired NeXT for $427 million, and used OPENSTEP as the basis for Mac OS X.[2] Traces of the NeXT software heritage can still be seen in Mac OS X. For example, in the Cocoa development environment, the Objective-C library classes have "NS" prefixes, and the HISTORY section of the manual page for the defaults command in Mac OS X straightforwardly states that the command "First appeared in NeXTStep."" So, yes, OS X is based on OPENSTEP, an evolution of NeXTSTEP. And it's based on BSD. And it's based on Mach. -- Rich

Nov. 18, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Information for Linux newbies?

by Andy Stewart

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kevin Harrington wrote: > As i mentioned at the meeting this past week I am going to be giving a > seminar for linux newbies and would like to pull from people that > know better then i do on what i should teach people. What i would like > to know is: What are some things that you wish you had known as a > newbie? Think back to your very first linux install and any > short-cuts, tips, tricks, and gatcha's that would make peoples first > experience easier. There is a lot of windows resentment after the slow > trainwreck that is vista, so lets see if we can get a few new > converts! Hi Kevin, When I was a newbie, Linux live CDs didn't yet exist, but they do now! I find the Knoppix CD/DVD useful for testing a new piece of hardware (like a laptop) to see if all of the pieces work with Linux. I believe that the Ubuntu CDs can also boot up in a live mode. In this way, you can try Linux without messing with your hard drive, and also see if your hardware works with that distribution. Note that if something doesn't work with the live CD, that doesn't necessarily mean it won't work with Linux at all, but demonstrating that something *does* work is a good thing. Just a thought... So, when are you resurrecting WPILA?! :-) Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHP8pAHl0iXDssISsRAkIlAJ9jTYAhCb3UkpsR7d1A4AWtufiv4wCgiICP 1T+k0toR3pc9MyRrDjSM2PE= =oBFq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Nov. 18, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Information for Linux newbies?

by Mike Leo

Where the heck is everything? http://tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/sect_03_01.html has a nice chart I think one thing that frustrates people is their relative path to everything...you can't cd /mike unless you're already in /home for instance. Even from the GUI's, Windows people will start at C:\ and move around from there. ----- Original Message ---- From: Kevin Harrington <mad.hephaestus(a)gmail.com> To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:01:05 AM Subject: [Wlug] Information for Linux newbies? As i mentioned at the meeting this past week I am going to be giving a seminar for linux newbies and would like to pull from people that know better then i do on what i should teach people. What i would like to know is: What are some things that you wish you had known as a newbie? Think back to your very first linux install and any short-cuts, tips, tricks, and gatcha's that would make peoples first experience easier. There is a lot of windows resentment after the slow trainwreck that is vista, so lets see if we can get a few new converts! P.S. one of the big concerns for a few people that i have talked to has been games, if anyone has a list of new-ish games that work or any tips specific to making the most recent generation work under linux, that would make things much easier ;) _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

Nov. 18, 2007

Information for Linux newbies?

by Kevin Harrington

As i mentioned at the meeting this past week I am going to be giving a seminar for linux newbies and would like to pull from people that know better then i do on what i should teach people. What i would like to know is: What are some things that you wish you had known as a newbie? Think back to your very first linux install and any short-cuts, tips, tricks, and gatcha's that would make peoples first experience easier. There is a lot of windows resentment after the slow trainwreck that is vista, so lets see if we can get a few new converts! P.S. one of the big concerns for a few people that i have talked to has been games, if anyone has a list of new-ish games that work or any tips specific to making the most recent generation work under linux, that would make things much easier ;)

Nov. 18, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Andy Stewart

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Walt Sawyer wrote: > Some banks (like mine-Ben Franklin) will allow the customer to download > a .qif file when banking online.. GnuCash imports that and will check > for duplicate entries. It works well (after using it for a year). I > like it. > Walt Besides GnuCash, there is also KMyMoney (a KDE application). Does anybody have any experience with it? I am fairly certain it can import a QIF or (perhaps) a QFX file (both Quicken formats). I am seriously considering dumping Quicken for one or the other of these, but as of know, I know not which one. Later, Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHP72NHl0iXDssISsRAuj0AJ9s6Z4GYc1h55Y7GNfgAlv0O7VoYgCeNe9S r2KHOY00I8L0PhIm3qjvKkg= =zrxP -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Nov. 18, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Walt Sawyer

Some banks (like mine-Ben Franklin) will allow the customer to download a .qif file when banking online.. GnuCash imports that and will check for duplicate entries. It works well (after using it for a year). I like it. Walt Eric Martin wrote: > John Stoffel wrote: > > Mike> There is one application and one process that is keeping me from > > Mike> being able to completely eliminate getting rid of windows. That > > Mike> is Quickbooks and syncing to my nokia 9300. I use SugarCRM for > > Mike> customer and marketing related related activities. Is there an > > Mike> open source alternative to quickbooks and to sync to my nokia > > Mike> (symbian os)? > > > Have you looked at gnucash as a QuickBooks replacement? I just wish > > I was anal enough to bother putting all my home/personal expenses into > > GnuCash, but I'm balking at re-typing my credit card and bank > > statements into it. > > > This is the Quicken advantage, they can talk to alot of banks and > > credit card companies to import data easily. > > > Actually, GnuCash can do this too, if your bank/CCC supports exporting > > in one of the standard financial formats. Now if I could just get my > > bank to *email* me an encrypted statement each month, I'd be happy... > > GNUcash can handle grabbing stuff online the same way quicken does. > The problem is most banks / credit cards (that I've tried) check for > quicken, so it doesn't work easily. I'm trying to get back into > punching my stuff into gnucash so I'll let you know how it goes. > > As for the Nokia, sorry, no clue. > Ditto > > Eric _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

Nov. 18, 2007

Linux Choix?

by Colin Novick

Apologies. Deepest even. Before anyone needs to chastise me I looked it up and OS X is more Next and other sources than Linux per se. Apparently Parallels on OS X will run Win and Lin, but the underlying OS is OS X and does not imply that ArcGIS would be stably emulated by a Linux machine emulating Win. Sorry. Hope not to have too terribly offended in my ignorance. Colin

Nov. 18, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix? Mach kernel

by Keith Wright

> From: Mike Leo <mleo963(a)yahoo.com> > > A pleasant correction... > > Mac OSX is a BSD derivative, not Linux, though they are similar. I am pretty sure that OSX uses the Mach microkernel, the same one used by the GNU Hurd, and which was developed by Rick Rashid et.al. at CMU in the 1980's. Last I knew Rick took a job at MS as Director of Research, or something like that. I know these things because I was a small part of the et.al. mentioned above. Mach was meant as a base on which to build a Unix-like OS, and FreeBSD had a large influence on how Mach was turned into OSX. I don't know if there is actual code from FreeBSD in it. (Apple has been lax in telling me before they do anything.) Many "Linux" programs, many of which are really GNU programs, run on OSX. -- Keith

Nov. 18, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Mike Leo

A pleasant correction... Mac OSX is a BSD derivative, not Linux, though they are similar. ----- Original Message ---- From: Colin Novick <c-novick-1(a)alumni.uchicago.edu> To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:23:49 PM Subject: [Wlug] Linux Choix? Steve, Thanks for the ArcGIS thoughts! I did some digging and came across this: http://spanring.eu/blog/2006/07/02/arcgis-on-mac-os-x-2/ They were getting ArcGIS 9.X to run (well even) on MacOS X with Parallels; Now I am a born-again newbie but as I understand it OS X is a Linux derivative, and Parallels is a means of faking a Windows OS (XP etc.) on the Mac. Do folks know if this might mean there is some hope for a Linux install that can be rigged to run Arc? Thanks so much, PS ESRI's (producer of Arc) site is supremely unhelpful as they aren't interested in much other than server support for Linux and a basic reader function. PPS Red Hat's site didn't give me much to go on.

Nov. 18, 2007

Linux Choix?

by Colin Novick

Steve, Thanks for the ArcGIS thoughts! I did some digging and came across this: http://spanring.eu/blog/2006/07/02/arcgis-on-mac-os-x-2/ They were getting ArcGIS 9.X to run (well even) on MacOS X with Parallels; Now I am a born-again newbie but as I understand it OS X is a Linux derivative, and Parallels is a means of faking a Windows OS (XP etc.) on the Mac. Do folks know if this might mean there is some hope for a Linux install that can be rigged to run Arc? Thanks so much, PS ESRI's (producer of Arc) site is supremely unhelpful as they aren't interested in much other than server support for Linux and a basic reader function. PPS Red Hat's site didn't give me much to go on.

Nov. 18, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Michael Long

> Have you looked at gnucash as a QuickBooks replacement? I just wish > I was anal enough to bother putting all my home/personal expenses into > GnuCash, but I'm balking at re-typing my credit card and bank > statements into it. > > This is the Quicken advantage, they can talk to alot of banks and > credit card companies to import data easily. > > Actually, GnuCash can do this too, if your bank/CCC supports exporting > in one of the standard financial formats. Now if I could just get my > bank to *email* me an encrypted statement each month, I'd be happy... > Wow...GnuCash has come along way since I first looked at it. The open source business packages are quickly catching up and passing the M$ counterparts. Nice!

Nov. 17, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Eric Martin

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stephen Daukas wrote: > As far as I know, ESRI have Linux versions of the > <http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/#>ArcSDE, ArcIMS, ArcObjects > (i.e. server products) but not for ArcMap, ArcCatalog or ArcInfo. > ESRI product documentation only talks about SUSE, Red Hat (intel), > and Solaris... > > Steve Ah, there's a GIS version of Knoppix that has a bunch of GIS stuff, I don't know if it will work / you can use it rather than ARC... ~eric -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHPx5CaiVxdKlBO58RAsXUAJ9ATUUG/Bj2+z4vuWM47qcqNyWZGACcCbYp knBtJqGjloR7s0Lbrnw1sF8= =snVz -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Nov. 17, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Eric Martin

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Stoffel wrote: > Mike> There is one application and one process that is keeping me from > Mike> being able to completely eliminate getting rid of windows. That > Mike> is Quickbooks and syncing to my nokia 9300. I use SugarCRM for > Mike> customer and marketing related related activities. Is there an > Mike> open source alternative to quickbooks and to sync to my nokia > Mike> (symbian os)? > > Have you looked at gnucash as a QuickBooks replacement? I just wish > I was anal enough to bother putting all my home/personal expenses into > GnuCash, but I'm balking at re-typing my credit card and bank > statements into it. > > This is the Quicken advantage, they can talk to alot of banks and > credit card companies to import data easily. > > Actually, GnuCash can do this too, if your bank/CCC supports exporting > in one of the standard financial formats. Now if I could just get my > bank to *email* me an encrypted statement each month, I'd be happy... > GNUcash can handle grabbing stuff online the same way quicken does. The problem is most banks / credit cards (that I've tried) check for quicken, so it doesn't work easily. I'm trying to get back into punching my stuff into gnucash so I'll let you know how it goes. > > As for the Nokia, sorry, no clue. Ditto Eric -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHPx3vaiVxdKlBO58RAgjlAKCHpBGUe5qJ2alF1H0j1W7IxQLyWgCfSIYx TpqH282r/uBWINpZ4aJ3XAQ= =6XYF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Nov. 17, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by John Stoffel

Mike> There is one application and one process that is keeping me from Mike> being able to completely eliminate getting rid of windows. That Mike> is Quickbooks and syncing to my nokia 9300. I use SugarCRM for Mike> customer and marketing related related activities. Is there an Mike> open source alternative to quickbooks and to sync to my nokia Mike> (symbian os)? Have you looked at gnucash as a QuickBooks replacement? I just wish I was anal enough to bother putting all my home/personal expenses into GnuCash, but I'm balking at re-typing my credit card and bank statements into it. This is the Quicken advantage, they can talk to alot of banks and credit card companies to import data easily. Actually, GnuCash can do this too, if your bank/CCC supports exporting in one of the standard financial formats. Now if I could just get my bank to *email* me an encrypted statement each month, I'd be happy... As for the Nokia, sorry, no clue. Mike> -----Original Message----- Mike> From: "Brian A. Dewhirst" <b.dewhirst(a)gmail.com> Mike> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:58:08 Mike> To:"Worcester Linux Users Group" <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> Mike> Subject: Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix? Mike> As the newly converted, I have to agree that Ubuntu is the way to go. Mike> After a miserable time trying to install Vista I popped in an Ubuntu Mike> disk. Mike> It just worked. Mike> -- Brian Mike> On Nov 17, 2007 9:45 AM, Mike Leo <mleo963(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> Ubuntu is the current poster child for Linux. >> >> You can buy Dell desktops, laptops and servers with Ubuntu pre-installed, >> and I think even HP offers the same. >> >> I use it as my primary work desktop, and dual boot it on my work laptop. >> >> It just works. >> >> Though I prefer Debian because I like to tinker, the latest version of >> Ubuntu does everything it needs to with little help. >> >> If you are trying to sell Linux to someone, I think its the way to go. >> >> ~mike >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Greater Worcester Land Trust <gwlt(a)gwlt.org> >> To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org >> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 9:37:02 PM >> Subject: [Wlug] Linux Choix? >> >> It has been a while. >> >> I tried getting our nonprofit (Worcester land conservation) to adopt Linux >> some years back. >> Problem I had back then was weak graphic options, publisher options, Quicken >> options, and a lack of a good answer to running ArcGIS. >> I was beaten back into M$. >> >> I want another crack at this. >> >> I am looking to take a spare laptop and install a Linux OS and OS apps. >> Previously, some years back, I used to use what are now Mandriva Linux >> installs. >> >> Coming back to this I see that there are dozens and dozens of options these >> days. >> >> What, if any, of the options do the WLUG folk prefer/recommend. >> >> Thanks so much, >> >> Colin >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wlug mailing list >> Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org >> http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >> >> Mike> _______________________________________________ Mike> Wlug mailing list Mike> Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Mike> http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug Mike> _______________________________________________ Mike> Wlug mailing list Mike> Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Mike> http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug Mike> !DSPAM:473f17d767451606314423!

Nov. 17, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Stephen Daukas

As far as I know, ESRI have Linux versions of the <http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/#>ArcSDE, ArcIMS, ArcObjects (i.e. server products) but not for ArcMap, ArcCatalog or ArcInfo. ESRI product documentation only talks about SUSE, Red Hat (intel), and Solaris... Steve On Nov 17, 2007 10:25 AM, Andre Lehovich <andrel(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > --- Greater Worcester Land Trust <gwlt(a)gwlt.org> wrote: > > Problem I had back then was weak graphic options, publisher options, > Quicken > > options, and a lack of a good answer to running ArcGIS. > > > What, if any, of the options do the WLUG folk prefer/recommend. > > If you didn't have ArcGIS in the mix I'd say go with Ubuntu. But since > you do, > check what the vendor recommends to see if Ubuntu is okay. If not then > either > go with Red Hat (if you want to pay for support) or Centos (if you don't). > > I don't know anything about accounting software, but my guess is that's > the > other big thing to pay attention to. > > --Andre > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. > Make Yahoo! your homepage. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- Stephen C. Daukas Engineer, Geoscientist, Environmental Analyst ________________________________________________ - Please, before printing, think about the environment -

Nov. 17, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Andre Lehovich

--- Greater Worcester Land Trust <gwlt(a)gwlt.org> wrote: > Problem I had back then was weak graphic options, publisher options, Quicken > options, and a lack of a good answer to running ArcGIS. > What, if any, of the options do the WLUG folk prefer/recommend. If you didn't have ArcGIS in the mix I'd say go with Ubuntu. But since you do, check what the vendor recommends to see if Ubuntu is okay. If not then either go with Red Hat (if you want to pay for support) or Centos (if you don't). I don't know anything about accounting software, but my guess is that's the other big thing to pay attention to. --Andre ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Nov. 17, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Mike Long

There is one application and one process that is keeping me from being able to completely eliminate getting rid of windows. That is Quickbooks and syncing to my nokia 9300. I use SugarCRM for customer and marketing related related activities. Is there an open source alternative to quickbooks and to sync to my nokia (symbian os)? -----Original Message----- From: "Brian A. Dewhirst" <b.dewhirst(a)gmail.com> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:58:08 To:"Worcester Linux Users Group" <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> Subject: Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix? As the newly converted, I have to agree that Ubuntu is the way to go. After a miserable time trying to install Vista I popped in an Ubuntu disk. It just worked. -- Brian On Nov 17, 2007 9:45 AM, Mike Leo <mleo963(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Ubuntu is the current poster child for Linux. > > You can buy Dell desktops, laptops and servers with Ubuntu pre-installed, > and I think even HP offers the same. > > I use it as my primary work desktop, and dual boot it on my work laptop. > > It just works. > > Though I prefer Debian because I like to tinker, the latest version of > Ubuntu does everything it needs to with little help. > > If you are trying to sell Linux to someone, I think its the way to go. > > ~mike > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Greater Worcester Land Trust <gwlt(a)gwlt.org> > To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 9:37:02 PM > Subject: [Wlug] Linux Choix? > > It has been a while. > > I tried getting our nonprofit (Worcester land conservation) to adopt Linux > some years back. > Problem I had back then was weak graphic options, publisher options, Quicken > options, and a lack of a good answer to running ArcGIS. > I was beaten back into M$. > > I want another crack at this. > > I am looking to take a spare laptop and install a Linux OS and OS apps. > Previously, some years back, I used to use what are now Mandriva Linux > installs. > > Coming back to this I see that there are dozens and dozens of options these > days. > > What, if any, of the options do the WLUG folk prefer/recommend. > > Thanks so much, > > Colin > > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

Nov. 17, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Brian A. Dewhirst

As the newly converted, I have to agree that Ubuntu is the way to go. After a miserable time trying to install Vista I popped in an Ubuntu disk. It just worked. -- Brian On Nov 17, 2007 9:45 AM, Mike Leo <mleo963(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Ubuntu is the current poster child for Linux. > > You can buy Dell desktops, laptops and servers with Ubuntu pre-installed, > and I think even HP offers the same. > > I use it as my primary work desktop, and dual boot it on my work laptop. > > It just works. > > Though I prefer Debian because I like to tinker, the latest version of > Ubuntu does everything it needs to with little help. > > If you are trying to sell Linux to someone, I think its the way to go. > > ~mike > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Greater Worcester Land Trust <gwlt(a)gwlt.org> > To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 9:37:02 PM > Subject: [Wlug] Linux Choix? > > It has been a while. > > I tried getting our nonprofit (Worcester land conservation) to adopt Linux > some years back. > Problem I had back then was weak graphic options, publisher options, Quicken > options, and a lack of a good answer to running ArcGIS. > I was beaten back into M$. > > I want another crack at this. > > I am looking to take a spare laptop and install a Linux OS and OS apps. > Previously, some years back, I used to use what are now Mandriva Linux > installs. > > Coming back to this I see that there are dozens and dozens of options these > days. > > What, if any, of the options do the WLUG folk prefer/recommend. > > Thanks so much, > > Colin > > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > >

Nov. 17, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Linux Choix?

by Mike Leo

Ubuntu is the current poster child for Linux. You can buy Dell desktops, laptops and servers with Ubuntu pre-installed, and I think even HP offers the same. I use it as my primary work desktop, and dual boot it on my work laptop. It just works. Though I prefer Debian because I like to tinker, the latest version of Ubuntu does everything it needs to with little help. If you are trying to sell Linux to someone, I think its the way to go. ~mike ----- Original Message ---- From: Greater Worcester Land Trust <gwlt(a)gwlt.org> To: wlug(a)mail.wlug.org Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 9:37:02 PM Subject: [Wlug] Linux Choix? It has been a while. I tried getting our nonprofit (Worcester land conservation) to adopt Linux some years back. Problem I had back then was weak graphic options, publisher options, Quicken options, and a lack of a good answer to running ArcGIS. I was beaten back into M$. I want another crack at this. I am looking to take a spare laptop and install a Linux OS and OS apps. Previously, some years back, I used to use what are now Mandriva Linux installs. Coming back to this I see that there are dozens and dozens of options these days. What, if any, of the options do the WLUG folk prefer/recommend. Thanks so much, Colin

Nov. 17, 2007

Linux Choix?

by Greater Worcester Land Trust

It has been a while. I tried getting our nonprofit (Worcester land conservation) to adopt Linux some years back. Problem I had back then was weak graphic options, publisher options, Quicken options, and a lack of a good answer to running ArcGIS. I was beaten back into M$. I want another crack at this. I am looking to take a spare laptop and install a Linux OS and OS apps. Previously, some years back, I used to use what are now Mandriva Linux installs. Coming back to this I see that there are dozens and dozens of options these days. What, if any, of the options do the WLUG folk prefer/recommend. Thanks so much, Colin

Nov. 17, 2007

Re: [Wlug] REMINDER: Upcoming WLUG meeting

by Richard Klein

On Nov 15, 2007 7:19 PM, Conner Finlay <cfinlay(a)gmail.com> wrote: > What server?Freenode? I can't remember, but this was in the archives: Connect to: irc.freenode.net /join #wlug-ma -- Rich

Nov. 16, 2007

Re: [Wlug] REMINDER: Upcoming WLUG meeting

by Conner Finlay

What server?Freenode? On Nov 15, 2007 7:04 PM, Richard Klein <richspk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 15, 2007 6:06 PM, Andy Stewart <andystewart(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > > One last note - would the gentleman who was interested in getting the > > undergrads together to talk about Linux please contact me offline? I'd > > like to explore some ideas with you. > > I think his name was Kevin, and as of last night he wasn't on the > mailing list, but I think he's on the IRC channel (#WLUGMA, IIRC). > > -- > Rich > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- Conner Finlay AIM:TrickFinlay2 Email:cfinlay@gmail.com Mobile:(774) 276-1145

Nov. 16, 2007

Re: [Wlug] REMINDER: Upcoming WLUG meeting

by Richard Klein

On Nov 15, 2007 6:06 PM, Andy Stewart <andystewart(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > One last note - would the gentleman who was interested in getting the > undergrads together to talk about Linux please contact me offline? I'd > like to explore some ideas with you. I think his name was Kevin, and as of last night he wasn't on the mailing list, but I think he's on the IRC channel (#WLUGMA, IIRC). -- Rich

Nov. 16, 2007

Re: [Wlug] REMINDER: Upcoming WLUG meeting

by Andy Stewart

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 HI Everybody, I just posted the slides from last night's WLUG meeting. Thanks, Frank, for giving a great talk. http://www.wlug.org/slides.html I was quite happy that the meeting was so well attended! We had 25 people at the meeting - definitely one of the best attended meetings we've had in quite some time. Also, we darn near filled the pizza restaurant, consuming a record 7 large pizzas! I hope everybody had a great time. One last note - would the gentleman who was interested in getting the undergrads together to talk about Linux please contact me offline? I'd like to explore some ideas with you. Thanks!! I look forward to next month's meeting to see you again. Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHPND0Hl0iXDssISsRAs8DAJ9uhuAWsRi2rfHVYHUWKQfJKI2TXwCdHtvj dmGf0iw6FoO67m7ZUX9xrok= =FgQZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Nov. 15, 2007