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Re: M-DISC 1000-year DVD and Blu-Ray

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > In 1975 I was working for Aetna Life and Casualty in Hartford, Connecticut. At that time Aetna > was the largest multiline Insurance company and also the largest commercial user of IBM equipment > in the "Free World" (which goes to show that with enough qualifiers you can be the best of > anything). > In any case we had 500,000 12" magnetic tape drives on site, with another 100,000 in a salt mine > for "long term storage". For those tapes the "retention time" was 9999 years. > Some of the older tapes were marked as seven-track, 128 bits-per-inch. > I asked my boss about trying to read those tapes, and he assured me there was a seven-track tape > drive stored along with the tapes, wrapped in bubble wrap. > "Yes", I said, "but where is the computer that can attach to that tape drive, and the OS that can > drive the tape controller, and the operator that can boot and run that operating system?" > My boss put his finger to his lips and said 'Shhhhhhhhh". I'm in the same boat with 43,000+ pieces of media offsite at Iron Mountain in a mix of DAT, DLT 7k, SDLT320 and LTO6 media that might need to be restored. And let's ignore the 8mm tapes that sat in a couple of boxes for 15+ yeats without anyone touching them ... even after I scrapped the tape library to read them.

Jan. 27, 2023

Re: M-DISC 1000-year DVD and Blu-Ray

by Jon "maddog" Hall

In 1975 I was working for Aetna Life and Casualty in Hartford, Connecticut. At that time Aetna was the largest multiline Insurance company and also the largest commercial user of IBM equipment in the "Free World" (which goes to show that with enough qualifiers you can be the best of anything). In any case we had 500,000 12" magnetic tape drives on site, with another 100,000 in a salt mine for "long term storage". For those tapes the "retention time" was 9999 years. Some of the older tapes were marked as seven-track, 128 bits-per-inch. I asked my boss about trying to read those tapes, and he assured me there was a seven-track tape drive stored along with the tapes, wrapped in bubble wrap. "Yes", I said, "but where is the computer that can attach to that tape drive, and the OS that can drive the tape controller, and the operator that can boot and run that operating system?" My boss put his finger to his lips and said 'Shhhhhhhhh". md On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 1:39 PM Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > Ignoring the 1000-year hype, I think it all depends on how much the > archivist community adopts the technology. If archivists decide that > M-DISC is a good solution, then the technology to read them will be > kept alive for that purpose at least long enough to copy the data to a > future format for the next span of time. If that is 30 or 50 or 100 > years, you are already doing much better than other types of digital > media at this storage density. > > Luckily M-DISC is just standard Blu-Ray at the physical layer. All > Blu-Ray drives can read M-DISC media, and all Blu-Ray writable drives > can write to M-DISC media. The same is not true of writing to M-DISC > DVDs--apparently some DVD-R drives do not have a strong enough laser > to write to M-DISC DVD. > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 01:13:04PM -0500, Frank Sweetser wrote: > > Let's be honest - if you gave someone a BlueRay disk *today*, there's a > > pretty good chance they'd have to go hunting around to find some hardware > > to read it. 1,000 years from now, you'd have to: > > > > > > - Set up the appropriate laser hardware to scan the physical medium at > > the appropriate resolution, frequency, etc, while not going so high > power > > that you damage the disc. > > - Translate the physical pits on the disc to a bitstream. > > - Translate the bitstream as a filesystem data. > > - Translate the contents of the files (anyone still have a copy of > Word > > 95?) > > > > This technology is probably fantastic on a scale of a few decades, so > long > > as you're careful about which file formats you pick, but if you're > serious > > about centuries or more you'd probably have to stick to something that > > requires no technology to read, like engravings on glass or non-corrosive > > metals. > > > > (For extra fun, just imagine the fun in a few centuries when amateur > > archeologists try to figure out these funny markings that turn out to be > QR > > codes > > > https://monuments.com/store/headstones-accessories/living-headstones-qr-code > > ) > > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:01 PM Tim Keller via WLUG < > wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> > > wrote: > > > > > Here's a question... in a 1000 years.. will you even have a drive that > > > could read such a disk? > > > You'd need to store details manuals with how to construct a drive and > the > > > format of the disks. > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:55 AM John Stoffel via WLUG < > > > wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > > > > > >> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> > writes: > > >> > > >> > Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't > > >> > degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC: > > >> > > >> > https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-1000-year-dvd-is-here/ > > >> > > >> > > > >> > https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS > > >> > > >> I see you can still buy the media and the drives to _write_ as of > > >> recently. Has anyone actually used these? > > >> > > >> I did find this interesting site: > > >> > > >> https://obsoletemedia.org > > >> > > >> And I currently have an external 2Tb USB harddrive in my safe deposit > > >> box with family photos and such. I should really buy a new one and do > > >> a swap so I have another sitting around. > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/FRXWY… >

Jan. 27, 2023

Re: M-DISC 1000-year DVD and Blu-Ray

by Chuck Anderson

Ignoring the 1000-year hype, I think it all depends on how much the archivist community adopts the technology. If archivists decide that M-DISC is a good solution, then the technology to read them will be kept alive for that purpose at least long enough to copy the data to a future format for the next span of time. If that is 30 or 50 or 100 years, you are already doing much better than other types of digital media at this storage density. Luckily M-DISC is just standard Blu-Ray at the physical layer. All Blu-Ray drives can read M-DISC media, and all Blu-Ray writable drives can write to M-DISC media. The same is not true of writing to M-DISC DVDs--apparently some DVD-R drives do not have a strong enough laser to write to M-DISC DVD. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 01:13:04PM -0500, Frank Sweetser wrote: > Let's be honest - if you gave someone a BlueRay disk *today*, there's a > pretty good chance they'd have to go hunting around to find some hardware > to read it. 1,000 years from now, you'd have to: > > > - Set up the appropriate laser hardware to scan the physical medium at > the appropriate resolution, frequency, etc, while not going so high power > that you damage the disc. > - Translate the physical pits on the disc to a bitstream. > - Translate the bitstream as a filesystem data. > - Translate the contents of the files (anyone still have a copy of Word > 95?) > > This technology is probably fantastic on a scale of a few decades, so long > as you're careful about which file formats you pick, but if you're serious > about centuries or more you'd probably have to stick to something that > requires no technology to read, like engravings on glass or non-corrosive > metals. > > (For extra fun, just imagine the fun in a few centuries when amateur > archeologists try to figure out these funny markings that turn out to be QR > codes > https://monuments.com/store/headstones-accessories/living-headstones-qr-code > ) > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:01 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> > wrote: > > > Here's a question... in a 1000 years.. will you even have a drive that > > could read such a disk? > > You'd need to store details manuals with how to construct a drive and the > > format of the disks. > > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:55 AM John Stoffel via WLUG < > > wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > > > >> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > >> > >> > Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't > >> > degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC: > >> > >> > https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-1000-year-dvd-is-here/ > >> > >> > > >> https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS > >> > >> I see you can still buy the media and the drives to _write_ as of > >> recently. Has anyone actually used these? > >> > >> I did find this interesting site: > >> > >> https://obsoletemedia.org > >> > >> And I currently have an external 2Tb USB harddrive in my safe deposit > >> box with family photos and such. I should really buy a new one and do > >> a swap so I have another sitting around.

Jan. 27, 2023

Re: M-DISC 1000-year DVD and Blu-Ray

by Frank Sweetser

Let's be honest - if you gave someone a BlueRay disk *today*, there's a pretty good chance they'd have to go hunting around to find some hardware to read it. 1,000 years from now, you'd have to: - Set up the appropriate laser hardware to scan the physical medium at the appropriate resolution, frequency, etc, while not going so high power that you damage the disc. - Translate the physical pits on the disc to a bitstream. - Translate the bitstream as a filesystem data. - Translate the contents of the files (anyone still have a copy of Word 95?) This technology is probably fantastic on a scale of a few decades, so long as you're careful about which file formats you pick, but if you're serious about centuries or more you'd probably have to stick to something that requires no technology to read, like engravings on glass or non-corrosive metals. (For extra fun, just imagine the fun in a few centuries when amateur archeologists try to figure out these funny markings that turn out to be QR codes https://monuments.com/store/headstones-accessories/living-headstones-qr-code ) On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:01 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > Here's a question... in a 1000 years.. will you even have a drive that > could read such a disk? > You'd need to store details manuals with how to construct a drive and the > format of the disks. > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:55 AM John Stoffel via WLUG < > wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > >> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: >> >> > Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't >> > degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC: >> >> > https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-1000-year-dvd-is-here/ >> >> > >> https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS >> >> I see you can still buy the media and the drives to _write_ as of >> recently. Has anyone actually used these? >> >> I did find this interesting site: >> >> https://obsoletemedia.org >> >> And I currently have an external 2Tb USB harddrive in my safe deposit >> box with family photos and such. I should really buy a new one and do >> a swap so I have another sitting around. >> >> John >> _______________________________________________ >> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >> Change Settings: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >> Web Forum/Archive: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/LGDTB… >> > > > -- > I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their > constituents as "consumers". > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/AIZH5… > -- - Frank

Jan. 27, 2023

Re: M-DISC 1000-year DVD and Blu-Ray

by Tim Keller

Here's a question... in a 1000 years.. will you even have a drive that could read such a disk? You'd need to store details manuals with how to construct a drive and the format of the disks. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:55 AM John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > > > Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't > > degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC: > > > https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-1000-year-dvd-is-here/ > > > https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS > > I see you can still buy the media and the drives to _write_ as of > recently. Has anyone actually used these? > > I did find this interesting site: > > https://obsoletemedia.org > > And I currently have an external 2Tb USB harddrive in my safe deposit > box with family photos and such. I should really buy a new one and do > a swap so I have another sitting around. > > John > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/LGDTB… > -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Jan. 27, 2023

Re: M-DISC 1000-year DVD and Blu-Ray

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't > degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC: > https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-1000-year-dvd-is-here/ > https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS I see you can still buy the media and the drives to _write_ as of recently. Has anyone actually used these? I did find this interesting site: https://obsoletemedia.org And I currently have an external 2Tb USB harddrive in my safe deposit box with family photos and such. I should really buy a new one and do a swap so I have another sitting around. John

Jan. 27, 2023

M-DISC 1000-year DVD and Blu-Ray

by Chuck Anderson

Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC: https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-1000-year-dvd-is-here/ https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS

Jan. 27, 2023

Re: Reminder! WLUG Meeting Tomorrow Jan 26th 2023: Topic Frame.work laptop demo!

by Chris (wolcen) Thompson

Gah, what an idiot - I found it, sorry. On 1/26/23 17:03, Chris (wolcen) Thompson via WLUG wrote: > Will there be simulcast via Jitsi tonight? I'm not up for hour+ the > train ride & walk each way, but do miss going. I'll get out there some > day! > > ~Chris > > On 1/26/23 16:57, John Stoffel via WLUG wrote: >> Even though I won't be there tonight in person, this interesting >> article about USB-C and the framework laptop just dropped on >> hackaday.com >> >> https://hackaday.com/2023/01/26/all-about-usb-c-framework-laptop/ >> >> Cheers! >> John >> _______________________________________________ >> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >> Change Settings: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >> Web Forum/Archive: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/VRYJM… > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/Y2WTM…

Jan. 26, 2023

Re: Reminder! WLUG Meeting Tomorrow Jan 26th 2023: Topic Frame.work laptop demo!

by Chris (wolcen) Thompson

Will there be simulcast via Jitsi tonight? I'm not up for hour+ the train ride & walk each way, but do miss going. I'll get out there some day! ~Chris On 1/26/23 16:57, John Stoffel via WLUG wrote: > Even though I won't be there tonight in person, this interesting > article about USB-C and the framework laptop just dropped on > hackaday.com > > https://hackaday.com/2023/01/26/all-about-usb-c-framework-laptop/ > > Cheers! > John > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/VRYJM…

Jan. 26, 2023

Re: Reminder! WLUG Meeting Tomorrow Jan 26th 2023: Topic Frame.work laptop demo!

by John Stoffel

Even though I won't be there tonight in person, this interesting article about USB-C and the framework laptop just dropped on hackaday.com https://hackaday.com/2023/01/26/all-about-usb-c-framework-laptop/ Cheers! John

Jan. 26, 2023