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Re: [Wlug] Progress with new Sparc????

by Adam Gomes

Ken, I'm still a little confused. Are you trying to boot an already installed OS, or are you trying to boot from cd? If the former is true, what does the partition table on the drive look like? BTW, the sun serial console should work at 9600/8/n/1 on a null modem cable connected to your PC's serial port (or even an old vt100 terminal). Can you share with me the output of probe-scsi? If you get me a little more info, I can probably help you out. Like I said, I run linux on sparc at home (and have for years), and I used to be a sparc / solaris system admin a few years back. Anyway, good luck. --Adam On Tue, March 20, 2007 9:40 pm, ken jones said: > Doug et al > > I found my cross over cables. printenv told me to set up at 9600bps ASCI > 8 none 1. I have tried VT100 and auto-detect. When I turn on the sparc > it tells me that it is using ttya for input. However, my hyperterminal > sees nothing. If I slow down the expected clock rate to 2400 I get to > letters "pp" when I startup the sparc. I do not get "ok" and I get no > response when I hit the "Enter" key. Too bad, since that connection > would allow me to show you what my terminal is saying. > > I did get a good response from probe-scsi and probe-scsi-all. It saw > both hard drives. > > I am now trying test-all. Last time it just hung but now it seems to be > correctly testing the terminal screen. > > OKAY! I know something. Self test failed a Transceiver check. It says: > Transceiver check -- failed > Selftest Failed. Return Code = -1 > Testing sbus@1f, 0/SUNW, fas@e 8800000 > CE DMA fill from address ffef8000 for 80 bytes > Testing sbus@1f, 0/SUNW fdtwo@f, 1400000 > Testing floppy disk system. A formatted disk should be in the drive. > No diskette or incorrect format. > Self test failed. Return code = -1 > > I wondered what is the "transceiver test" which is failing. The word > "transceiver" usually is referring to I/O. I was correct. I installed > the ethernet cable and the transceiver test passed. > > I know one thing now. The CDROM reader does not work. Part of test-all > is to check for a formatted disk in the reader. I put a known good disk > in, but the SUN does not see it. That does not explain why it will not > boot up correctly. It should note that there is no disk and boot to > installed linux. > > My latest status is to try booting over my office network. I gave my > home router/DHCP server the new sparc's ethernet address and assigned > an IP address. I have no idea whether the sparc is configured to > expect a DHCP address. I do not see where I can configure that. > > Ken Jones > > > > Doug Mildram wrote: >> doug> I know the Sparc a bit. >> >> give me a call hell, i am trashing sparc's here, incl. 1 ultra1 >> >> also: sun keyboard is a big factor. If it's seen at powerup, >> its the console (monitor or no monitor) >> >> if keyb not attached on powerup, >> the com1 equivalent /dev/ttya (DIN or 25pin, varies) >> becomes the console. >> >> >> doug 508-243-6580 cell >> >> >> MORE RANDOM TIPS TO MYSELF YEARS AGO: >> on a SPARC instead of BIOS we have "eeprom" or "rom prompt".... >> >> There's no "F2" or "DELETE" hint during bootup, >> but there is one "dangerous" way to stop either the OS or the boot-up. >> >> L1-a or STOP-A is like a ctl-Z to the OS...or an interrupt a >> bootup. >> >> eeprom prompt is "ok" >> ok> >> >> If you accidentally STOP the OS by mistake you can get it to go BACK UP >> WITH >> >> ok> go >> or maybe >> ok> continue >> >> normally we do NOT DO MUCH with the eeprom settings, >> AND, it is possible to tweak eeprom settings from either situation: >> 1) from the ok> prompt with "setenv" >> 2) from SOLARIS with # eeprom >> >> So you can see all the settings with a simple anyuser% /usr/sbin/eeprom >> >> Syntax is slightly different. I wont talk about UNIX "eeprom" anymore >> except to say there is a man page. >> >> BACK TO THE ok> PROMPT you can...most notably: >> >> ok> setenv auto-boot? false >> or >> ok> setenv auto-boot? true >> >> the question mark is not a "wild character". It just implies >> that it's a true/false parameter. >> >> false means it will *NOT* boot to solaris... on power up. >> true means "normal"...will try to load solaris from boot-device >> >> a UNIX "reboot" command will override this setting. >> >> -----boot "device" in eeprom >> NORMALLY the eeprom setting for boot-device has a few words >> and "disk" should be the first word. >> >> ok> printenv boot-device >> >> may return disk diskbrd diskisp disksoc net >> I only know what "disk" and "net" means..... >> "net" is useless unless you have another "diskless server" set >> up. >> >> >> >> ok> probe-scsi (can you see the CD drive?) >> Target 0 >> Unit 0 Disk ..... >> >> >> maybe not . but if the CD is on an external scsi bus you may need to >> say >> >> ok> probe-scsi-all (can you see the CD drive?) >> >> pci@1f,4000/scsi@3,1 (a 2nd controller for the external scsi port) >> Target 6 >> Unit 0 removable read only device TOSHIBA..... >> Unit 0 Disk ..... >> >> pci@1f,4000/scsi@3 >> Target 0 >> Unit 0 Disk ..... >> >> BACK TO installation. hopefully you simply say: >> >> with solaris2.7 CD in the drive, >> >> ok> boot cdrom >> >> didnt work? it must have been looking for >> >> >> ok> devalias >> >> shows >> >> cdrom /pci@1f,4000/scsi@3/disk@6,0:f >> >> BUT I HAD A CD drive on the 3,1 controller so I can say: >> >> boot /pci@1f,4000/scsi@3,1/disk@6,0:f >> >> AND THIS WORKED on this particular machine. >> >> (if you see the CD light come on, and eventually see some kernel string >> like >> >> SunOS 5.7 Generic_106541-17 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-Enterprise >> >> >> THEN YOU KNOW you got the right command. >> >> Next you hope your CD and CD drive dont have too many read errors. >> >> ok> >> >> >> SPECIAL BOOT ARGUMENT......to rebuild /dev* entries. >> >> lets say you ADD HARDWARE like a 2nd disk. >> >> UNIX% halt >> ...add a disk if you can...then you'd want to >> >> ok> boot -r (THIS Reconfigures /dev and /devices, >> so it would add /dev/???/??? for the new disk) >> >> SPECIAL BOOT ARGUMENT......to stop at singleuser. >> >> >> ok> boot -s (would stop at runlevel 1 for the default kernel ..on >> disk?) >> >> But even then (unlike most unix's) it prompts you >> for the root password, i think. So dont forget it. >> ------------------doug >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >

March 21, 2007

Progress with new Sparc????

by ken jones

Doug et al I found my cross over cables. printenv told me to set up at 9600bps ASCI 8 none 1. I have tried VT100 and auto-detect. When I turn on the sparc it tells me that it is using ttya for input. However, my hyperterminal sees nothing. If I slow down the expected clock rate to 2400 I get to letters "pp" when I startup the sparc. I do not get "ok" and I get no response when I hit the "Enter" key. Too bad, since that connection would allow me to show you what my terminal is saying. I did get a good response from probe-scsi and probe-scsi-all. It saw both hard drives. I am now trying test-all. Last time it just hung but now it seems to be correctly testing the terminal screen. OKAY! I know something. Self test failed a Transceiver check. It says: Transceiver check -- failed Selftest Failed. Return Code = -1 Testing sbus@1f, 0/SUNW, fas@e 8800000 CE DMA fill from address ffef8000 for 80 bytes Testing sbus@1f, 0/SUNW fdtwo@f, 1400000 Testing floppy disk system. A formatted disk should be in the drive. No diskette or incorrect format. Self test failed. Return code = -1 I wondered what is the "transceiver test" which is failing. The word "transceiver" usually is referring to I/O. I was correct. I installed the ethernet cable and the transceiver test passed. I know one thing now. The CDROM reader does not work. Part of test-all is to check for a formatted disk in the reader. I put a known good disk in, but the SUN does not see it. That does not explain why it will not boot up correctly. It should note that there is no disk and boot to installed linux. My latest status is to try booting over my office network. I gave my home router/DHCP server the new sparc's ethernet address and assigned an IP address. I have no idea whether the sparc is configured to expect a DHCP address. I do not see where I can configure that. Ken Jones Doug Mildram wrote: > doug> I know the Sparc a bit. > > give me a call hell, i am trashing sparc's here, incl. 1 ultra1 > > also: sun keyboard is a big factor. If it's seen at powerup, > its the console (monitor or no monitor) > > if keyb not attached on powerup, > the com1 equivalent /dev/ttya (DIN or 25pin, varies) > becomes the console. > > > doug 508-243-6580 cell > > > MORE RANDOM TIPS TO MYSELF YEARS AGO: > on a SPARC instead of BIOS we have "eeprom" or "rom prompt".... > > There's no "F2" or "DELETE" hint during bootup, > but there is one "dangerous" way to stop either the OS or the boot-up. > > L1-a or STOP-A is like a ctl-Z to the OS...or an interrupt a bootup. > > eeprom prompt is "ok" > ok> > > If you accidentally STOP the OS by mistake you can get it to go BACK UP WITH > > ok> go > or maybe > ok> continue > > normally we do NOT DO MUCH with the eeprom settings, > AND, it is possible to tweak eeprom settings from either situation: > 1) from the ok> prompt with "setenv" > 2) from SOLARIS with # eeprom > > So you can see all the settings with a simple anyuser% /usr/sbin/eeprom > > Syntax is slightly different. I wont talk about UNIX "eeprom" anymore > except to say there is a man page. > > BACK TO THE ok> PROMPT you can...most notably: > > ok> setenv auto-boot? false > or > ok> setenv auto-boot? true > > the question mark is not a "wild character". It just implies > that it's a true/false parameter. > > false means it will *NOT* boot to solaris... on power up. > true means "normal"...will try to load solaris from boot-device > > a UNIX "reboot" command will override this setting. > > -----boot "device" in eeprom > NORMALLY the eeprom setting for boot-device has a few words > and "disk" should be the first word. > > ok> printenv boot-device > > may return disk diskbrd diskisp disksoc net > I only know what "disk" and "net" means..... > "net" is useless unless you have another "diskless server" set up. > > > > ok> probe-scsi (can you see the CD drive?) > Target 0 > Unit 0 Disk ..... > > > maybe not . but if the CD is on an external scsi bus you may need to say > > ok> probe-scsi-all (can you see the CD drive?) > > pci@1f,4000/scsi@3,1 (a 2nd controller for the external scsi port) > Target 6 > Unit 0 removable read only device TOSHIBA..... > Unit 0 Disk ..... > > pci@1f,4000/scsi@3 > Target 0 > Unit 0 Disk ..... > > BACK TO installation. hopefully you simply say: > > with solaris2.7 CD in the drive, > > ok> boot cdrom > > didnt work? it must have been looking for > > > ok> devalias > > shows > > cdrom /pci@1f,4000/scsi@3/disk@6,0:f > > BUT I HAD A CD drive on the 3,1 controller so I can say: > > boot /pci@1f,4000/scsi@3,1/disk@6,0:f > > AND THIS WORKED on this particular machine. > > (if you see the CD light come on, and eventually see some kernel string like > > SunOS 5.7 Generic_106541-17 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-Enterprise > > > THEN YOU KNOW you got the right command. > > Next you hope your CD and CD drive dont have too many read errors. > > ok> > > > SPECIAL BOOT ARGUMENT......to rebuild /dev* entries. > > lets say you ADD HARDWARE like a 2nd disk. > > UNIX% halt > ...add a disk if you can...then you'd want to > > ok> boot -r (THIS Reconfigures /dev and /devices, > so it would add /dev/???/??? for the new disk) > > SPECIAL BOOT ARGUMENT......to stop at singleuser. > > > ok> boot -s (would stop at runlevel 1 for the default kernel ..on disk?) > > But even then (unlike most unix's) it prompts you > for the root password, i think. So dont forget it. ------------------doug > > > >

March 21, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Suse Linux Professional 10?

by Clint Moyer

I could not get Compiz to work on OpenSuSe 10.2. Besides I can't advocate for Novell considering their recent partnership with MS. Any of the Ubuntus are great. The GUI frontend to apt works exceptionally well. After you've updated the list of repositories, adding pretty much any app is a simple point-n-click. It was pretty straightforward to load Nvidia's driver and setup Beryl. Sweet eye candy! In 13 years of using Linux, it's the first distro I've considered user-friendly enough to put on my kids' PC. If you want to be cutting edge, Ubuntu 7.4 officially releases next month. Of course, you can also get it right now. Clint ---- douglas.r.aker(a)verizon.com wrote: ============= OK, did so more research. Looks like it's called OpenSuse 10.2. Read some reviews. Some good, some not so good. Also considering switching to Fedora Core 4 or (K)Ubuntu 6.10. Any thoughts for or against these distro's? Has anyone ever used: http://www.thelinuxstore.ca/ ? Thanks, Doug Doug Aker/EMPL/MA/Verizon@VZNotes Sent by: wlug-bounces(a)mail.wlug.org 03/20/2007 10:54 AM Please respond to "Worcester Linux Users Group" <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> To "Worcester Linux Users Group" <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> cc Subject [Wlug] Suse Linux Professional 10? Hi all: The last Suse Linux software I purchased for laptop use was Suse Linux Professional 9.2. Looking now to upgrade to 10. Anyone know the latest Suse release for desktop use? And I don't think they call it "Suse Linux Professional" anymore. And did Suse ever solve that Yast slowness problem (at least I think it was something like that). Thanks, Doug _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

March 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Problems with a Sparc ULTRA1

by ken jones

March 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Suse Linux Professional 10?

by Bruce Linnell

>From a neophyte's point of view, I'm pleased with oSuSE 10.2. I also installed using a DVD, but can't say it went without a hitch. The only problem was getting my USB wireless adapter to work. But I had already had that problem with Ubuntu and Gentoo. I never did get it to work directly (ended up using a NIC and a Buffalo wireless converter). But in the course of trying those three distros I decided I liked the oSuSE best...and I think it was YaST that tilted the scales. Again, I was a blank slate 3 months ago so I can't give you a "compare and contrast" with previous releases of oSuSE or YaST. Bruce On Tue, 2007-03-20 at 14:33 -0400, douglas.r.aker(a)verizon.com wrote: > > OK, did so more research. Looks like it's called OpenSuse 10.2. Read > some reviews. Some good, some not so good. > > Also considering switching to Fedora Core 4 or (K)Ubuntu 6.10. Any > thoughts for or against these distro's? > > Has anyone ever used: http://www.thelinuxstore.ca/ ? > > Thanks, > Doug > > > > Doug Aker/EMPL/MA/Verizon@VZNotes > Sent by: > wlug-bounces(a)mail.wlug.org > > 03/20/2007 10:54 AM > Please respond to > "Worcester Linux Users Group" > <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> > > > > > To > "Worcester Linux > Users Group" > <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> > cc > > Subject > [Wlug] Suse Linux > Professional 10? > > > > > > > > > > Hi all: > > The last Suse Linux software I purchased for laptop use was Suse Linux > Professional 9.2. Looking now to upgrade to 10. Anyone know the > latest Suse release for desktop use? And I don't think they call it > "Suse Linux Professional" anymore. And did Suse ever solve that Yast > slowness problem (at least I think it was something like that). > > Thanks, > Doug _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

March 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Suse Linux Professional 10?

by James Gray

I've had a very good experience with Ubuntu. I can't really compare it to anything else, because it is the only distro that I've ever used for very long. As you know, Ubuntu/Kubundu decision is based on your preference for Gnome/KDE respectively. The desktop CDs for both of these distros can boot right from the CD into a fully functional system. I recommend you burn a CD and take it for a test drive. James On 3/20/07, douglas.r.aker(a)verizon.com <douglas.r.aker(a)verizon.com> wrote: > > > OK, did so more research. Looks like it's called OpenSuse 10.2. Read > some reviews. Some good, some not so good. > > Also considering switching to Fedora Core 4 or (K)Ubuntu 6.10. Any > thoughts for or against these distro's? > > Has anyone ever used: http://www.thelinuxstore.ca/ ? > > Thanks, > Doug > > > > *Doug Aker/EMPL/MA/Verizon@VZNotes* > Sent by: wlug-bounces(a)mail.wlug.org > > 03/20/2007 10:54 AM Please respond to > "Worcester Linux Users Group" <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> > > To > "Worcester Linux Users Group" <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> cc > > Subject > [Wlug] Suse Linux Professional 10? > > > > > > > > Hi all: > > The last Suse Linux software I purchased for laptop use was Suse Linux > Professional 9.2. Looking now to upgrade to 10. Anyone know the latest > Suse release for desktop use? And I don't think they call it "Suse Linux > Professional" anymore. And did Suse ever solve that Yast slowness problem > (at least I think it was something like that). > > Thanks, > Doug _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > > > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > >

March 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Suse Linux Professional 10?

by Robert L Krawitz

From: douglas.r.aker(a)verizon.com Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:33:42 -0400 OK, did so more research. Looks like it's called OpenSuse 10.2. Read some reviews. Some good, some not so good. Short answer: after a rocky start, this release is really, really good. I found the *initial* upgrade from 10.0 to 10.2 to be very painful -- the upgrade process was actually the most painful I've had, and I've been using SUSE distributions since ~6.0 (usually I take every second or third release). The problem was that the RPM consistency checker was finding a problem, but gave an empty list of inconsistencies, so I couldn't resolve it except by cut and try. The YAST online update is also ugly -- it only wants to upgrade from a site that it picks, and doesn't let you easily upgrade from your own mirror. The one major other problem I had, when upgrading my server, is that I had to rebuild my cyrus imapd databases, and this took a bunch of web searching. The other major annoyance is that 10.2 doesn't support apt. That's the bad. When I eventually got past this, I've found it to be really good. Laptop support is particularly improved; suspend to disk is considerably faster, suspend to RAM even sometimes works (it's actually the resume that's the problem, and it's the usual graphics thing), power management in general works well, and Network Manager does a really good job of managing network interfaces on a laptop (you don't have to use it -- you can use the traditional if-up tool if you like, but once you try Network Manager on a laptop you won't want to go back). I think they've finally stabilized their software installation -- 10.1 was reputed to be a real horror story. There are a lot of smart (Novell's apt-like tool -- why they couldn't just use apt is beyond me, but smart can handle a lot of different repository types) repositories around. The packman and guru repositories have a lot of good stuff; I also use this to do my upgrades. KDE 3.5.6 finally fixes a raft of problems, and if you sync to a hand held make certain to upgrade to 3.5.6 before trying to sync, or you'll basically lose all of your calendar appointments. I'm finding I'm having to build a lot fewer things myself than I did with 9.1 and 10.0. I've largely depopulated my /usr/local. -- Robert Krawitz <rlk(a)alum.mit.edu> Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2 Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail lpf(a)uunet.uu.net Project lead for Gutenprint -- http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net "Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works." --Eric Crampton

March 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Suse Linux Professional 10?

by Andy Stewart

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Brett Russ wrote: > On 3/20/07, douglas.r.aker(a)verizon.com <douglas.r.aker(a)verizon.com> wrote: >> The last Suse Linux software I purchased for laptop use was Suse Linux >> Professional 9.2. Looking now to upgrade to 10. Anyone know the latest >> Suse release for desktop use? And I don't think they call it "Suse Linux >> Professional" anymore. And did Suse ever solve that Yast slowness problem >> (at least I think it was something like that). > > Visit http://www.opensuse.org/ They're at 10.2. > > I think I'm on 10.1 at home and Yast is still slow and less functional > than previous versions. Am thinking about trying one of the new > designer distros (kubuntu maybe). Is the grass greener? > > BR > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > Hi gang, As a long time SuSE user, I definitely noticed the slowness of YaST around version 10.1. Not all of YaST is effected, but the part having to do with software installation and package management was definitely screwed up. It was so bad that version 10.1 was re-released to fix these problems. However, before the re-release, I had switched from YaST to the Smart package manager (http://labix.org/smart) It is available on the SuSE media, if I recall correctly. I use the Smart PM for software installation, and I use the other parts of YaST accordingly. Its not an ideal solution but it functions. Once Microsoft got involved with Novell, I began to have reservations about my continued use of SuSE. I still have SuSE 10.1 on my server at home, but my new laptop is running Kubuntu and I'm very pleased with it. I use the Smart PM on Kubuntu, too! The perception of greener grass is relative - perhaps it is better stated that the brown patches are in different places. :-) I currently have no plans to upgrade my SuSE installation due to Microsoft's involvement with Novell. Once I start to feel like my server is running outdated software, I'll look at alternatives at that time, but that'll be a while from now. Later, Andy - -- Andy Stewart, Founder Worcester Linux Users' Group (http://www.wlug.org) Chelmsford Linux Meetup Group (http://linux.meetup.com/393) Amateur Radio: KB1OIQ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGAFxCHl0iXDssISsRAiiVAJ9PbTd0tPGsifs/tM8OkNFDHZOvEQCfR/s4 f0xLfQukqLmssSvPpTl7UCY= =iUdW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

March 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Suse Linux Professional 10?

by Mike Leo

Yes. I hear nothing but awful awful things about Suse 10.0 and 10.1, especially in regards to Yast. 10.2 claims to have pulled it out of the fire, and people say Yast is improved. However, you don't have to stick with Yast....SMART is making headlines lately as the next end-all be-all package manager. I don't use Suse myself, so don't rely only on what I say. ~Mike ----- Original Message ---- From: Brett Russ <bruss(a)alum.wpi.edu> To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 2:00:35 PM Subject: Re: [Wlug] Suse Linux Professional 10? On 3/20/07, douglas.r.aker(a)verizon.com <douglas.r.aker(a)verizon.com> wrote: > The last Suse Linux software I purchased for laptop use was Suse Linux > Professional 9.2. Looking now to upgrade to 10. Anyone know the latest > Suse release for desktop use? And I don't think they call it "Suse Linux > Professional" anymore. And did Suse ever solve that Yast slowness problem > (at least I think it was something like that). Visit http://www.opensuse.org/ They're at 10.2. I think I'm on 10.1 at home and Yast is still slow and less functional than previous versions. Am thinking about trying one of the new designer distros (kubuntu maybe). Is the grass greener? BR _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug

March 20, 2007

Re: [Wlug] Suse Linux Professional 10?

by howard＠howardwhite.net

<<The last Suse Linux software I purchasedfor laptop use was Suse Linux Professional 9.2. Looking now to upgradeto 10. Anyone know the latest Suse release for desktop use? AndI don't think they call it "Suse Linux Professional" anymore. And did Suse ever solve that Yast slowness problem (at least I thinkit was something like that).>> Go here and look at how to install Open SuSe for free. I downloaded it, put it on a DVD, and installed without a hitch. Then look on the OpenSuSe page for the Smart Package Manager (just add /Smart to the url), which is a nice utility for keeping all your apps up-to-date. HW (one of these days I'll actually come to a meeting...)

March 20, 2007