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Re: I just bought a Pi5.. we'll see if I actually get it.

by Jon "maddog" Hall

I am hoping that mine arrives tomorrow, but I may have to dig it out of the snow. md On Sat, Jan 6, 2024 at 8:11 PM Tim Keller <turbofx(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I *actually* got a Pi5 in the mail today! Well.. I needed something to > play with during the storm!! > > Tim. > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 10:22 AM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > >> >> > You did not say what version of the RPi you had in the closet, but >> > many of the early ones had an ambient operating temperature of 40 >> > degrees C (104 F), which is really not that hot. As you probably >> > know, beginning with the RPi 4th they started talking about needing >> > fans as well as heat sinks. If you were doing any heavy work on >> > the Pi and did not have it set up to throttle back if it got too >> > warm, it could have easily fried itself. >> >> Yeah, I forget exactly which version I had, probably a 1gb v2 or v3. >> I've had several die on me for various reasons. Mostly I think it was >> the power regulator chip being a bit intolerant. >> >> But I've also lost a BeagleBone Black (nice SBC in general) but have a >> Model 3 B (made by Sony) running in my garage doing PiAware data >> collection, and it gets hot in the summer there. >> >> So I really think it was a power blip which killed my unit. >> >> > For what it is worth, here are some notes on the RPi 5 cooling. >> > Note that not of it talks about real operating temperatures, just >> > when the fans turn on and by how much. What if the surrounding >> > temperature is very hot and the heat sing and fan can not cool the >> > SoC enough? >> >> > >> https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/raspberry-pi-5.html#coo… >> >> > Some manufacturers of SBCs offer an industrial or even a military >> > version of their boards which can have higher ambient temperatures? >> >> I think I really need one with cleaner/better power conditioning. >> >> > On the project I am working on in Brazil we test the units to work >> > with just a heat sink, not a fan, of 70 degrees C (158 F) >> >> > On another note, the first RPis also did not do very good with ESD >> > (Electrostatic Discharge). We had 12 Rpis die in the lab while we >> > were working with them, versus none of our boards where we had put >> > in some ESD protection. >> >> Yup, this is what I think killed my units. >> >> > Finally, many of the first RPis did NOT have very good power >> > management. Depending on how much current was pulled off the >> > peripherals the CPU could just be starved or too much power pulled >> > through the board. >> >> I'm not doing anything in my remote site units, they're jsut linux >> nodes I can login to and then run commands on to diagnose network >> issues. >> >> Starting to think about getting an old PCEnginge's board and using >> that. They're really solid, low power and last forever. I've got two >> of them here at home, one running my firewall, the other running >> TP-Link Omada software for my TP-LINK WAPs and Switches unified >> management. >> >> >> >> >> > You may know or have thought about all of these things. >> >> > md >> >> > On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 7:00 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: >> >> >>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: >> >> >> So after buying a 4gb model.. Logan found that Adafruit is selling >> >> the 8GB version for the same price.. so I'm getting the 8GB version. >> >> > Tempting for sure, but then I need to add a case, power supply, >> etc. >> >> > Now for my rant, I've got a pair of OrangePi 3LTS boards and I'm >> > disappointed in them honestly. They work well, but one of them (the >> > one I put remote to me) just up and died. It doesn't power up and >> god >> > knows what happened. It was in a building where nothing else died, >> so >> > I don't think it was lightning or anything like that. Maybe just a >> > crappy USB-C powersupply? Bad batch of boards? >> >> > Dunno... just a bit annoyed, especially since the other one I kept >> at >> > home for testing of upgrades before I pushed them to the remote one >> > just keeps on working. >> >> > So I'm really thinking I should just pick up a cheap old SFF PC and >> > put linux on it and just leave that at the remote site where it >> > *might* be more durable to whatever is killing my SBCs I deply >> there. >> >> > Oh yeah, I had a raspberryPi in the same location and it too died. >> > Maybe it's just too damn warm in that network closet. But there's >> > really only just a couple of switches and a wireless AP in there, >> not >> > much else in terms of power. >> >> > Gah! >> > _______________________________________________ >> > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >> > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >> > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >> > Change Settings: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >> > Web Forum/Archive: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/MYLSA… >> > > > -- > I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their > constituents as "consumers". >

Jan. 7, 2024

Re: I just bought a Pi5.. we'll see if I actually get it.

by Tim Keller

I *actually* got a Pi5 in the mail today! Well.. I needed something to play with during the storm!! Tim. On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 10:22 AM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > > > You did not say what version of the RPi you had in the closet, but > > many of the early ones had an ambient operating temperature of 40 > > degrees C (104 F), which is really not that hot. As you probably > > know, beginning with the RPi 4th they started talking about needing > > fans as well as heat sinks. If you were doing any heavy work on > > the Pi and did not have it set up to throttle back if it got too > > warm, it could have easily fried itself. > > Yeah, I forget exactly which version I had, probably a 1gb v2 or v3. > I've had several die on me for various reasons. Mostly I think it was > the power regulator chip being a bit intolerant. > > But I've also lost a BeagleBone Black (nice SBC in general) but have a > Model 3 B (made by Sony) running in my garage doing PiAware data > collection, and it gets hot in the summer there. > > So I really think it was a power blip which killed my unit. > > > For what it is worth, here are some notes on the RPi 5 cooling. > > Note that not of it talks about real operating temperatures, just > > when the fans turn on and by how much. What if the surrounding > > temperature is very hot and the heat sing and fan can not cool the > > SoC enough? > > > > https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/raspberry-pi-5.html#coo… > > > Some manufacturers of SBCs offer an industrial or even a military > > version of their boards which can have higher ambient temperatures? > > I think I really need one with cleaner/better power conditioning. > > > On the project I am working on in Brazil we test the units to work > > with just a heat sink, not a fan, of 70 degrees C (158 F) > > > On another note, the first RPis also did not do very good with ESD > > (Electrostatic Discharge). We had 12 Rpis die in the lab while we > > were working with them, versus none of our boards where we had put > > in some ESD protection. > > Yup, this is what I think killed my units. > > > Finally, many of the first RPis did NOT have very good power > > management. Depending on how much current was pulled off the > > peripherals the CPU could just be starved or too much power pulled > > through the board. > > I'm not doing anything in my remote site units, they're jsut linux > nodes I can login to and then run commands on to diagnose network > issues. > > Starting to think about getting an old PCEnginge's board and using > that. They're really solid, low power and last forever. I've got two > of them here at home, one running my firewall, the other running > TP-Link Omada software for my TP-LINK WAPs and Switches unified > management. > > > > > > You may know or have thought about all of these things. > > > md > > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 7:00 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > > >>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > > >> So after buying a 4gb model.. Logan found that Adafruit is selling > >> the 8GB version for the same price.. so I'm getting the 8GB version. > > > Tempting for sure, but then I need to add a case, power supply, etc. > > > Now for my rant, I've got a pair of OrangePi 3LTS boards and I'm > > disappointed in them honestly. They work well, but one of them (the > > one I put remote to me) just up and died. It doesn't power up and > god > > knows what happened. It was in a building where nothing else died, > so > > I don't think it was lightning or anything like that. Maybe just a > > crappy USB-C powersupply? Bad batch of boards? > > > Dunno... just a bit annoyed, especially since the other one I kept at > > home for testing of upgrades before I pushed them to the remote one > > just keeps on working. > > > So I'm really thinking I should just pick up a cheap old SFF PC and > > put linux on it and just leave that at the remote site where it > > *might* be more durable to whatever is killing my SBCs I deply there. > > > Oh yeah, I had a raspberryPi in the same location and it too died. > > Maybe it's just too damn warm in that network closet. But there's > > really only just a couple of switches and a wireless AP in there, not > > much else in terms of power. > > > Gah! > > _______________________________________________ > > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/MYLSA… > -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Jan. 7, 2024

Re: Thanks for an amazing 2023, more fun to be had in 2024!

by hammerron

Hi John. Speaking for myself. Life has gotten in the way from me attending. I do intend to get back to meetings, though it may take me another month or two. As far as meeting content, just my opinion mind you, I think a good mix is helpful. It's a plus to have a talk or demo planned and announced a bit in advance when possible. "Low level" talks in my eyes are good too. I think a broad spectrum goes a long way, meaning over the course of several meets. A good mix might be a good draw for new members, as low level talks will be easier for novices and the other talks can help show what is out there beyond what they may have already learned. Regards, Ron On 1/5/24 14:18, John Stoffel via WLUG wrote: >>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: >> Hey Everybody, >> Happy New Year! > Happy New Year! > >> Thanks for sticking with WLUG! It's been a year of change and >> challenges. We found ourselves a new home at Technocopia and make >> some new friends along the way. This is going to be another amazing >> year of talks and demos, lively conversations and general geeking >> out on all things. >> I look forward to many more WLUG meetings to come. > I wonder what Tim and the rest of us can do to improve membership and > more importantly attendance at Technocopia? Is it too far for people > to drive? A bad day of the month? A bad time frame? A bad location? > > We've been trying to keep the remote jitsi stuff working, but > technocopia is a bit louder where we sit and meet, and a bit harder to > get good sound both ways. > > I'm hopeful that we can get more people in person, assuming we know > what people want? > > I personally need to come up with an update for my talk on KiCad, > updated for version 7. Could anyone do a talk on scribus? Or > inkscape? Or do people want more low level linux talks? > > What do we offer as a group that keeps bringing you back? Or not? > Does there need to be more of an agenda? > > Please give your feedback! > John > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/TR74M…

Jan. 6, 2024

Re: Thanks for an amazing 2023, more fun to be had in 2024!

by Kevin Harrington

Yall are welcome to come in Saturdays 1-4, since i am there for Robot Club. Thoughts? On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 2:48 PM Gregory Boyce via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 2:20 PM John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: >> >> >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: >> >> >> > Thanks for sticking with WLUG! It's been a year of change and >> > challenges. We found ourselves a new home at Technocopia and make >> > some new friends along the way. This is going to be another amazing >> > year of talks and demos, lively conversations and general geeking >> > out on all things. >> >> > I look forward to many more WLUG meetings to come. >> >> I wonder what Tim and the rest of us can do to improve membership and >> more importantly attendance at Technocopia? Is it too far for people >> to drive? A bad day of the month? A bad time frame? A bad location? > > > For me, Thursdays are just tough. I'm divorced, and I spent Thursday evenings with my kids. The same is true for Tuesdays. > > If there was ever an interest in a weekend meetup, that could work better for me. I also have access to space at WorcShop in Leicester, if room for an event was needed. > > -- > Greg > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/E6IJ4…

Jan. 5, 2024

Re: Thanks for an amazing 2023, more fun to be had in 2024!

by Gregory Boyce

On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 2:20 PM John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > > > > Thanks for sticking with WLUG! It's been a year of change and > > challenges. We found ourselves a new home at Technocopia and make > > some new friends along the way. This is going to be another amazing > > year of talks and demos, lively conversations and general geeking > > out on all things. > > > I look forward to many more WLUG meetings to come. > > I wonder what Tim and the rest of us can do to improve membership and > more importantly attendance at Technocopia? Is it too far for people > to drive? A bad day of the month? A bad time frame? A bad location? > For me, Thursdays are just tough. I'm divorced, and I spent Thursday evenings with my kids. The same is true for Tuesdays. If there was ever an interest in a weekend meetup, that could work better for me. I also have access to space at WorcShop in Leicester, if room for an event was needed. -- Greg

Jan. 5, 2024

Re: Thanks for an amazing 2023, more fun to be had in 2024!

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > Hey Everybody, > Happy New Year! Happy New Year! > Thanks for sticking with WLUG! It's been a year of change and > challenges. We found ourselves a new home at Technocopia and make > some new friends along the way. This is going to be another amazing > year of talks and demos, lively conversations and general geeking > out on all things. > I look forward to many more WLUG meetings to come. I wonder what Tim and the rest of us can do to improve membership and more importantly attendance at Technocopia? Is it too far for people to drive? A bad day of the month? A bad time frame? A bad location? We've been trying to keep the remote jitsi stuff working, but technocopia is a bit louder where we sit and meet, and a bit harder to get good sound both ways. I'm hopeful that we can get more people in person, assuming we know what people want? I personally need to come up with an update for my talk on KiCad, updated for version 7. Could anyone do a talk on scribus? Or inkscape? Or do people want more low level linux talks? What do we offer as a group that keeps bringing you back? Or not? Does there need to be more of an agenda? Please give your feedback! John

Jan. 5, 2024

Re: I just bought a Pi5.. we'll see if I actually get it.

by John Stoffel

> You did not say what version of the RPi you had in the closet, but > many of the early ones had an ambient operating temperature of 40 > degrees C (104 F), which is really not that hot. As you probably > know, beginning with the RPi 4th they started talking about needing > fans as well as heat sinks. If you were doing any heavy work on > the Pi and did not have it set up to throttle back if it got too > warm, it could have easily fried itself. Yeah, I forget exactly which version I had, probably a 1gb v2 or v3. I've had several die on me for various reasons. Mostly I think it was the power regulator chip being a bit intolerant. But I've also lost a BeagleBone Black (nice SBC in general) but have a Model 3 B (made by Sony) running in my garage doing PiAware data collection, and it gets hot in the summer there. So I really think it was a power blip which killed my unit. > For what it is worth, here are some notes on the RPi 5 cooling. > Note that not of it talks about real operating temperatures, just > when the fans turn on and by how much. What if the surrounding > temperature is very hot and the heat sing and fan can not cool the > SoC enough? > https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/raspberry-pi-5.html#coo… > Some manufacturers of SBCs offer an industrial or even a military > version of their boards which can have higher ambient temperatures? I think I really need one with cleaner/better power conditioning. > On the project I am working on in Brazil we test the units to work > with just a heat sink, not a fan, of 70 degrees C (158 F) > On another note, the first RPis also did not do very good with ESD > (Electrostatic Discharge). We had 12 Rpis die in the lab while we > were working with them, versus none of our boards where we had put > in some ESD protection. Yup, this is what I think killed my units. > Finally, many of the first RPis did NOT have very good power > management. Depending on how much current was pulled off the > peripherals the CPU could just be starved or too much power pulled > through the board. I'm not doing anything in my remote site units, they're jsut linux nodes I can login to and then run commands on to diagnose network issues. Starting to think about getting an old PCEnginge's board and using that. They're really solid, low power and last forever. I've got two of them here at home, one running my firewall, the other running TP-Link Omada software for my TP-LINK WAPs and Switches unified management. > You may know or have thought about all of these things. > md > On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 7:00 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: >>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: >> So after buying a 4gb model.. Logan found that Adafruit is selling >> the 8GB version for the same price.. so I'm getting the 8GB version. > Tempting for sure, but then I need to add a case, power supply, etc. > Now for my rant, I've got a pair of OrangePi 3LTS boards and I'm > disappointed in them honestly. They work well, but one of them (the > one I put remote to me) just up and died. It doesn't power up and god > knows what happened. It was in a building where nothing else died, so > I don't think it was lightning or anything like that. Maybe just a > crappy USB-C powersupply? Bad batch of boards? > Dunno... just a bit annoyed, especially since the other one I kept at > home for testing of upgrades before I pushed them to the remote one > just keeps on working. > So I'm really thinking I should just pick up a cheap old SFF PC and > put linux on it and just leave that at the remote site where it > *might* be more durable to whatever is killing my SBCs I deply there. > Oh yeah, I had a raspberryPi in the same location and it too died. > Maybe it's just too damn warm in that network closet. But there's > really only just a couple of switches and a wireless AP in there, not > much else in terms of power. > Gah! > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/MYLSA…

Jan. 5, 2024

Re: I just bought a Pi5.. we'll see if I actually get it.

by Jon "maddog" Hall

John, You did not say what version of the RPi you had in the closet, but many of the early ones had an ambient operating temperature of 40 degrees C (104 F), which is really not that hot. As you probably know, beginning with the RPi 4th they started talking about needing fans as well as heat sinks. If you were doing any heavy work on the Pi and did not have it set up to throttle back if it got too warm, it could have easily fried itself. For what it is worth, here are some notes on the RPi 5 cooling. Note that not of it talks about real operating temperatures, just when the fans turn on and by how much. What if the surrounding temperature is very hot and the heat sing and fan can not cool the SoC enough? https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/raspberry-pi-5.html#coo… Some manufacturers of SBCs offer an industrial or even a military version of their boards which can have higher ambient temperatures? On the project I am working on in Brazil we test the units to work with just a heat sink, not a fan, of 70 degrees C (158 F) On another note, the first RPis also did not do very good with ESD (Electrostatic Discharge). We had 12 Rpis die in the lab while we were working with them, versus none of our boards where we had put in some ESD protection. Finally, many of the first RPis did NOT have very good power management. Depending on how much current was pulled off the peripherals the CPU could just be starved or too much power pulled through the board. You may know or have thought about all of these things. md On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 7:00 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > > > So after buying a 4gb model.. Logan found that Adafruit is selling > > the 8GB version for the same price.. so I'm getting the 8GB version. > > Tempting for sure, but then I need to add a case, power supply, etc. > > > Now for my rant, I've got a pair of OrangePi 3LTS boards and I'm > disappointed in them honestly. They work well, but one of them (the > one I put remote to me) just up and died. It doesn't power up and god > knows what happened. It was in a building where nothing else died, so > I don't think it was lightning or anything like that. Maybe just a > crappy USB-C powersupply? Bad batch of boards? > > Dunno... just a bit annoyed, especially since the other one I kept at > home for testing of upgrades before I pushed them to the remote one > just keeps on working. > > So I'm really thinking I should just pick up a cheap old SFF PC and > put linux on it and just leave that at the remote site where it > *might* be more durable to whatever is killing my SBCs I deply there. > > Oh yeah, I had a raspberryPi in the same location and it too died. > Maybe it's just too damn warm in that network closet. But there's > really only just a couple of switches and a wireless AP in there, not > much else in terms of power. > > Gah! >

Jan. 5, 2024

Re: I just bought a Pi5.. we'll see if I actually get it.

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> writes: > So after buying a 4gb model.. Logan found that Adafruit is selling > the 8GB version for the same price.. so I'm getting the 8GB version. Tempting for sure, but then I need to add a case, power supply, etc. Now for my rant, I've got a pair of OrangePi 3LTS boards and I'm disappointed in them honestly. They work well, but one of them (the one I put remote to me) just up and died. It doesn't power up and god knows what happened. It was in a building where nothing else died, so I don't think it was lightning or anything like that. Maybe just a crappy USB-C powersupply? Bad batch of boards? Dunno... just a bit annoyed, especially since the other one I kept at home for testing of upgrades before I pushed them to the remote one just keeps on working. So I'm really thinking I should just pick up a cheap old SFF PC and put linux on it and just leave that at the remote site where it *might* be more durable to whatever is killing my SBCs I deply there. Oh yeah, I had a raspberryPi in the same location and it too died. Maybe it's just too damn warm in that network closet. But there's really only just a couple of switches and a wireless AP in there, not much else in terms of power. Gah!

Jan. 5, 2024

Re: I just bought a Pi5.. we'll see if I actually get it.

by Tim Keller

So after buying a 4gb model.. Logan found that Adafruit is selling the 8GB version for the same price.. so I'm getting the 8GB version. I hear you with the NVME I/O. NVME is really the only way I fly when it comes to doing stuff that needs I/O. Greg, I'll need to see what an NVME adapter costs. But honestly, to really use a pi as a desktop, you need real storage. Tim. On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 3:16 PM Jon "maddog" Hall <jon.maddog.hall(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Tim, > > Here is a Tom's Hardware report on several "benchmarks" between a 4GB and > 8GB Rpi 5 > > https://www.tomshardware.com/raspberry-pi/raspberry-pi-5-4gb-versus-8gb > > Their overall conclusion was that for most uses the RPi 5 with 4GB will be > fine. Probably if you keep 100 tabs open on your browser YMMV. > > I have rendered and received the PCIe daughter card that allows you to > attach a 1TB nVMe M.2 memory card, supposedly with 5000MB/sec read and > write (although I do not expect that I will get that through the PCIe on > the Pi 5. I have to have some time to put everything together, but I > should be doing that in the next couple of weeks. You can probably find > others who have done it already with some decent search queries on the > Internet. Here is one I found from Tom's Hardware: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXWu4SUsaY8 > > I will tell you that when I switched from a SATA 3 SSD to a nVMe M.2 card > on my laptop the change was "breathtaking" on I/O style of loads. I will > never go back. > > md > > On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 1:19 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> > wrote: > >> They say estimated delivery of Jan 9th - Jan 11th.. So, who knows.. I >> bought the 4GB model, so it should be functional as a desktop, my plan is >> to experiment with it as a daily drivers. >> >> Beyond that, what do people think would be a good benchmark to experiment >> with? >> >> Tim. >> >> -- >> I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their >> constituents as "consumers". >> _______________________________________________ >> WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org >> Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ >> Change Settings: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ >> Web Forum/Archive: >> https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/PZXLT… >> > -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Jan. 3, 2024