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Re: [Wlug] help diagnosing PC issue: suspect power supply

by Brett Russ

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 4:58 PM, John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > Actually, I'd also go into the BIOS and reset it to the manufacturers > defaults, just in case you made a change at some point to tweak > settings for more performance, etc. I.E. make sure there's no > overclocking or anything like that. Yes, I've done that several times. In fact, since my BIOS is having issues preserving settings and shows the CMOS checksum failure quite often, I usually have to revert to defaults just to boot. This, despite a brand new CMOS battery. This is the other symptom in my original email that I can't yet explain. But, if it ends up being a motherboard HW issue, then anything could go wrong including corrupted CMOS. thanks, Brett

Oct. 10, 2012

Re: [Wlug] help diagnosing PC issue: suspect power supply

by John Stoffel

Brett> I will double check later tonight the completely bare motherboard Brett> (with CPU and at least one DIMM, of course) to see if I can repro Brett> again in this state. I'll check for any LEDs and flashing patterns. Actually, I'd also go into the BIOS and reset it to the manufacturers defaults, just in case you made a change at some point to tweak settings for more performance, etc. I.E. make sure there's no overclocking or anything like that. Good luck! John

Oct. 10, 2012

Re: [Wlug] help diagnosing PC issue: suspect power supply

by Brett Russ

All, I'll try to address everyone's responses at once. In short, it's nothing to do with the OS because the problem is quite simply a failure for the BIOS to complete POST, and quite often at that. As I mentioned I've already repro'd the problem with everything (which means a video card and all SATA devices and all USB devices b/c everything else is onboard) unplugged. This is why I suspect the HW. The next step is, as someone suggested, monitoring motherboard LEDs, although I haven't seen much here yet. There is no beep pattern when things fail. There is, apparently, a beep at end of POST, which I don't hear when the problem repro's, which indicates to me that I'm stuck in POST somewhere. I will double check later tonight the completely bare motherboard (with CPU and at least one DIMM, of course) to see if I can repro again in this state. I'll check for any LEDs and flashing patterns. Lastly, I'll manually disable through BIOS menu as many devices as I can and hope that the settings stick across reboot (I'd mentioned some problems in this department in my original email). Even then I'm not sure if the BIOS will still include these devices in POST (I'd expect it might) and then just disable them before proceeding to boot the OS. Thanks for the help all! Brett

Oct. 10, 2012

Re: [Wlug] help diagnosing PC issue: suspect power supply

by David P. Connell

My apologies for excess (here and previous posts). I should have re-read the original post more clearly. Still, I hope I may have sparked a thought along the chain of diagnosis. Good luck. -- David P. Connell "Watch where you're going; remember where you've been."

Oct. 10, 2012

Re: [Wlug] help diagnosing PC issue: suspect power supply

by David P. Connell

I agree with running a liveCD OS to test for software issues. Almost always do that to draw the line between software and hardware issues. Try Puppy Linux, if only because of the fast download, cute name, and it is of course, useful as well. SystemRescueCD too. And, to clarify about "fickle memory" - I meant running tests on memory can be tricky, as was mentioned by another individual. Still sounds like it could be spiking power and then lagging power in the supply circuit on the motherboard. Could be a single capacitor or (sadly) impossible to find economically. I hope it is something simple though, like the NIC idea, although those are usually onboard nowadays and a bad IC or circuit there may remain a problem even if not being used. You could try the same idea as our friend suggested of removing peripherals and adding them back by doing something similar in the bios by disabling all nonessential items. Turn off the NIC, the serial port, if applicable, etc. One thing I wasn't sure of: have you tried a different video card? You mentioned replacing the failed monitor in the original post. I always try to go back to previous failures and changes to trace current problems. It may be possible that some sort of power spike during the failure of that old monitor caused an intermittent (or pending) issue in your video card that is now showing up in your system. Since the video subsystem is such a 'major' part of the way we use computers these days and also very tightly bound to the power system and power requirements in a lot of instances, I would at least check it out. DaveC On 10/10/2012 1:24 PM, David P. Connell wrote: > How about the power capacitors and/or ic's on the board itself (as > opposed the the power supply)? I have to admit, that is the first thing > that came to my mind after reading the first few posts. I'm surprised > nobody else went there. Of course, memory is a fickle thing and it > still could be that, but I am feeling that it is something else. > > DaveC > > > On 10/8/2012 11:30 PM, Brett Russ wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Brett Russ <bruss(a)alum.wpi.edu> wrote: >>> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Chuck Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote: >>>> I agree that the power supply is suspect. You can measure the voltage >>>> Alternatively, it may be easier to just try a replacement. >>> I have a new one on the way. I'll reply here with the results. >> Well, brand new power supply and the system behaves the same >> problematic way as before. >> >> So next try is the memory, as another list reply suggested. I've had >> memtest86 running against both DIMMs for 47+ hours and counting, 70 >> total passes so far, and 0 errors. Remember I'd already tried >> removing first one DIMM, then the other, and the problem repro'd >> either way. So by these measures it'd seem the memory is OK? I know >> some mem problems take days to show up so I'll just leave this running >> for a couple more days anyway. >> >> Not much more I can do here, as I've seen repros with most everything >> else unplugged so I'm now thinking it must be the motherboard. >> Perhaps I will try reseating the CPU--haven't done that yet. >> >> Recall the system is having trouble POST'ing: it hangs at various >> points before BIOS POST completes, i.e. I don't get a confirming >> 'beep' at end of POST and in some cases the monitor won't wake, other >> cases the BIOS splash screen stays splashed, etc. The full original >> email is here: >> http://mail.wlug.org/pipermail/wlug/2012-September/008059.html >> >> Anyway, if anyone has other ideas here I'd welcome them. >> >> Thanks again, >> Brett >> _______________________________________________ >> Wlug mailing list >> Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org >> http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug >> > -- David P. Connell "Watch where you're going; remember where you've been."

Oct. 10, 2012

Re: [Wlug] help diagnosing PC issue: suspect power supply

by David P. Connell

How about the power capacitors and/or ic's on the board itself (as opposed the the power supply)? I have to admit, that is the first thing that came to my mind after reading the first few posts. I'm surprised nobody else went there. Of course, memory is a fickle thing and it still could be that, but I am feeling that it is something else. DaveC On 10/8/2012 11:30 PM, Brett Russ wrote: > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Brett Russ <bruss(a)alum.wpi.edu> wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Chuck Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote: >>> I agree that the power supply is suspect. You can measure the voltage >>> Alternatively, it may be easier to just try a replacement. >> I have a new one on the way. I'll reply here with the results. > Well, brand new power supply and the system behaves the same > problematic way as before. > > So next try is the memory, as another list reply suggested. I've had > memtest86 running against both DIMMs for 47+ hours and counting, 70 > total passes so far, and 0 errors. Remember I'd already tried > removing first one DIMM, then the other, and the problem repro'd > either way. So by these measures it'd seem the memory is OK? I know > some mem problems take days to show up so I'll just leave this running > for a couple more days anyway. > > Not much more I can do here, as I've seen repros with most everything > else unplugged so I'm now thinking it must be the motherboard. > Perhaps I will try reseating the CPU--haven't done that yet. > > Recall the system is having trouble POST'ing: it hangs at various > points before BIOS POST completes, i.e. I don't get a confirming > 'beep' at end of POST and in some cases the monitor won't wake, other > cases the BIOS splash screen stays splashed, etc. The full original > email is here: > http://mail.wlug.org/pipermail/wlug/2012-September/008059.html > > Anyway, if anyone has other ideas here I'd welcome them. > > Thanks again, > Brett > _______________________________________________ > Wlug mailing list > Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org > http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug > -- David P. Connell "Watch where you're going; remember where you've been."

Oct. 10, 2012

Re: [Wlug] Possible problem with demo tomorrow...

by Frank Sweetser

My vote would be to go ahead with the presentation, and don't worry about the demo. Tim Keller <turbofx(a)gmail.com> wrote: >There's that old adage, when it rains it pours... > >Work critical stuff has made it hard for me to focus on getting the >demo to >work completely. > >I can do two things... > >1. I can do my presentation without the demo. >2. I can do my presentation next month, giving me time to get the demo >working right, etc. > >What do you guys want me to do? > >Thanks, >Tim. > >-- >I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their >constituents as "consumers". > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Wlug mailing list >Wlug(a)mail.wlug.org >http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Oct. 9, 2012

Possible problem with demo tomorrow...

by Tim Keller

There's that old adage, when it rains it pours... Work critical stuff has made it hard for me to focus on getting the demo to work completely. I can do two things... 1. I can do my presentation without the demo. 2. I can do my presentation next month, giving me time to get the demo working right, etc. What do you guys want me to do? Thanks, Tim. -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Oct. 9, 2012

Re: [Wlug] help diagnosing PC issue: suspect power supply

by Theo Van Dinter

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Richard Klein <rich(a)richardklein.org>wrote: > It could be the motherboard or CPU, but try unplugging all USB devices > and removing all the internal cards that you can, first. If it boots > okay then, try adding them back, one at a time, until you find the > offending device. > Just a second for this sort of approach. I once had a machine which basically got hit by lightning and they went down. In the end, I found that what had actually happened was the hub I was using got hit and fried all the network cards on the LAN. As I recall, the machines wouldn't even let me power them on until I pulled the (noticeably crispy) network card out and then everything worked fine after that.

Oct. 9, 2012

Re: [Wlug] help diagnosing PC issue: suspect power supply

by joel d

> From: Brett Russ <bruss(a)alum.wpi.edu> > Subject: Re: [Wlug] help diagnosing PC issue: suspect power supply > To: Worcester Linux Users Group <wlug(a)mail.wlug.org> > Message-ID: > <CAGcHgFN4odSRHmS=jjYuvEDy1myRMOgKEYxy0bWu9e4-3V9i7A(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Brett Russ <bruss(a)alum.wpi.edu> wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Chuck Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote: >>> I agree that the power supply is suspect. You can measure the voltage >> >>> Alternatively, it may be easier to just try a replacement. >> >> I have a new one on the way. I'll reply here with the results. > > Well, brand new power supply and the system behaves the same > problematic way as before. > > So next try is the memory, as another list reply suggested. I've had > memtest86 running against both DIMMs for 47+ hours and counting, 70 > total passes so far, and 0 errors. Remember I'd already tried > removing first one DIMM, then the other, and the problem repro'd > either way. So by these measures it'd seem the memory is OK? I know > some mem problems take days to show up so I'll just leave this running > for a couple more days anyway. > > Not much more I can do here, as I've seen repros with most everything > else unplugged so I'm now thinking it must be the motherboard. > Perhaps I will try reseating the CPU--haven't done that yet. > > Recall the system is having trouble POST'ing: it hangs at various > points before BIOS POST completes, i.e. I don't get a confirming > 'beep' at end of POST and in some cases the monitor won't wake, other > cases the BIOS splash screen stays splashed, etc. The full original > email is here: > http://mail.wlug.org/pipermail/wlug/2012-September/008059.html > > Anyway, if anyone has other ideas here I'd welcome them. > > Thanks again, > Brett > Hi Brett, You sound pretty convinced this is a PC hardware problem. I think I missed the earlier discussion, but how exactly do you know this is hardware at fault (vs anything not hardware at fault) and how certain are you? Have you tried running a "bootable operating system" via a CD or DVD drive as a diagnostic step (will it boot Ubuntu or another from the optical drive)? If CD/DVD boot is out, there are thumb drive bootable images also. I would start here and rule out everything that is not hardware. As a test, if a different O.S. than Ubuntu 11.10, runs well (except slower) from an optical drive, your hardware is likely fine (and instead have an Ubuntu 11 or app or driver problem). Step only takes a few minutes and is very telling (and well worth it IMHO). This step will likely tell you if it is hardware vs everything else. So if you can assure yourself it is hardware 100% ... All the PC hardware I have worked on in the past years is pretty much self diagnosing/reporting. In this case, your job if you choose to accept it, is to "read and decipher what the motherboard is telling you at boot up". To speak the language of your motherboard, you need to check for any of the following information: External to case, Rear facing LEDs (often have many and are multi-colored) On motherboard LEDs, viewable only inside Beep tones heard at boot up Error or other messages displayed quickly at bootup You need to read the "diagnostics" page of your model's specific PC or motherboard vendor's manual for this specific PC/motherboard to decipher what it is seeing at bootup (based upon lights/beeps/LEDS/etc). Sounds like: You either have two bad power supplies, or this is not the problem. You could have bad memory DIMM(s) that do pass MemTest86 (these test help, but I have seen them pass on bad chips it is a bit of a long shot though). You have changed the motherboard battery and flashed the latest BIOS. Don't rule out a new BIOS being a problem (glitch in install or wrong one or BIOS version problem) You still have a problem that could be hardware or not. You could have an Ubuntu 11 playing well with your motherboard, thus a test of another OS and version... If it was my PC I would next rule out the following in this order: Test and work on whatever the motherboard manufacturer is telling you via lights/beeps/LEDs/boot messages. Ubuntu V11.10, not because I don't like it but trying something else for 15 minutes could tell you something. The current version of CMOS you flashed to the motherboard

Oct. 9, 2012