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Re: [Wlug] RE: [WPILA-Discuss] Gentoo Linux Distro

by Aaron Haviland

Frank Sweetser said: > On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:06:54PM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote: > > it's not dpkg that has the problem. debian's gcc is patched so it > > defaults to i386 if the arch is any ix86, unless specified otherwise. > > (at least, that's what i'm making of this patch...) > > Actually, that's standard gcc behavior, which redhat has as well. Well, I seem to remember seeing something... somewhere... to some effect that I'm not entirely sure of... and I can't find it anymore... (sadly, this is how my mind usually works. broken and partial memories) > The difference here is that (if I understand things correctly) if you want to > compile a package for iX86 where X != 3, then you have to download and install > a package which *changes the default for every compile on the whole system*. > As Charles mentioned, the way that RPM does it is by macros. You tell RPM "I > want to build this particular packate for i586". It then goes off, and via the > correct configure macros, adds the flags to gcc (probably the same flags that > the debian package makes the system wide default) to compile *only* that > package for i586. > > So if I'm a random user who wants to compile a package on a i686 platform to be > run on a 386, and the sysadmin has installed the i686 package, that means that > I have to do *extra* work to get *standard* behavior! > > Someone please tell me if I'm wrong, because that seems like a pretty hackish > way to do things. pentium-builder is a wrapper for gcc/g++ that iff DEBIAN_BUILDARCH is set, runs gcc/g++ with -march=$DEBIAN_BUILDARCH -mcpu=$DEBIAN_BUILDARCH, otherwise it just runs gcc/g++. it's transparant to whatever called gcc. you don't have to specify DEBIAN_BUILDARCH=i386 to revert to default. the name "pentium-builder" doesn't mean it's specifically for pentium. as for it being hackish... from the pentium-builder README: Why did I do it this way? There are alternatives after all. I could just set CFLAGS or GCC, or I could place the shell script wrappers in a separate directory and set the PATH to point to them when you want to build pentium optimized stuff. The problem with all these ideas is that I can imagine packages that would circumvent them. It's a hack, but it works. I welcome a cleaner solution. ... on another note, i've compiled povray for k6 and pentium and timed them, aka "time ./povray" running on a k6 machine, the k6 optimised one consistently runs 1 second faster overall (33 seconds total) but the pentium optimised one has a .1 second lower sys time. which is better? (i don't have the output anymore. just thought i'd ask while on the topic of optimising) (yes, i read the time manpage. just doesn't seem to sink in through this thick skull :) ) -- Aaron Haviland orion [at] tribble [dot] dyndns [dot] org orion [at] parsed [dot] net A man on a slushy bender can do some crazy things.

March 14, 2002

Re: [Wlug] RE: [WPILA-Discuss] Gentoo Linux Distro

by Aaron Haviland

Charles R. Anderson said: > On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:06:54PM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote: > orion> As far as everything being i386, that's lets debian be installable on > orion> more architectures, like the 386 laptop i'm typing this on right now. > orion> Redhat, Mandrake, etc wouldn't install... everything's pentium > orion> optimised. > > Red Hat is not Pentium optimized. They do however provide i586 and i686 > kernel and glibc packages that will be installed only if the system > supports them. Hmmm. I can't find the redhat or mandrake cds i tried a couple years ago... but i seem to recall that i was unable to completely install because something was compiled for i586 and wouldn't run. honestly can't remember, it was too long ago. *shrug* sorry if i'm spreading bad information. a bad experience will do that to me :) -- Aaron Haviland orion [at] tribble [dot] dyndns [dot] org orion [at] parsed [dot] net "Boys in bed, girls in bed All now go to sleep Sleep, sweet dreams Wake to a new today tomorrow"

March 14, 2002

Re: [Wlug] RE: [WPILA-Discuss] Gentoo Linux Distro

by Charles R. Anderson

On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:06:54PM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote: orion> As far as everything being i386, that's lets debian be installable on orion> more architectures, like the 386 laptop i'm typing this on right now. orion> Redhat, Mandrake, etc wouldn't install... everything's pentium orion> optimised. Red Hat is not Pentium optimized. They do however provide i586 and i686 kernel and glibc packages that will be installed only if the system supports them. -- Charles R. Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> / http://angus.ind.wpi.edu/~cra/ PGP Key ID: 49BB5886 Fingerprint: EBA3 A106 7C93 FA07 8E15 3AC2 C367 A0F9 49BB 5886

March 14, 2002

Re: [Wlug] RE: [WPILA-Discuss] Gentoo Linux Distro

by Frank Sweetser

On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:06:54PM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote: > it's not dpkg that has the problem. debian's gcc is patched so it > defaults to i386 if the arch is any ix86, unless specified otherwise. > (at least, that's what i'm making of this patch...) Actually, that's standard gcc behavior, which redhat has as well. The difference here is that (if I understand things correctly) if you want to compile a package for iX86 where X != 3, then you have to download and install a package which *changes the default for every compile on the whole system*. As Charles mentioned, the way that RPM does it is by macros. You tell RPM "I want to build this particular packate for i586". It then goes off, and via the correct configure macros, adds the flags to gcc (probably the same flags that the debian package makes the system wide default) to compile *only* that package for i586. So if I'm a random user who wants to compile a package on a i686 platform to be run on a 386, and the sysadmin has installed the i686 package, that means that I have to do *extra* work to get *standard* behavior! Someone please tell me if I'm wrong, because that seems like a pretty hackish way to do things. -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu, fs at suave.net | $ x 18 Full-time WPI Network Tech, Part time Linux/Perl guy | The UNIX system has a command, nice, which allows a user to voluntarily reduce the priority of his process, in order to be nice to the other users. Nobody ever uses it. -A. Tanenbaum, _Modern Operating Systems_

March 14, 2002

Re: [Wlug] RE: [WPILA-Discuss] Gentoo Linux Distro

by Aaron Haviland

Charles R. Anderson said: > On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:40:34AM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote: > orion> > Just install pentium-builder, set the environment variable like it > orion> > says to, and apt-get -b source <package> away! > orion> > orion> Well, hot damn. you're my new hero! Now I can still build optimised > orion> local .debs and make non-optimised redistributable ones without messy > orion> tweaking! > > RPM has had the ability to build for different architectures and > optimize based on them since the beginning: > > rpm --rebuild --target=i386,i586,i686 foo.src.rpm it's not dpkg that has the problem. debian's gcc is patched so it defaults to i386 if the arch is any ix86, unless specified otherwise. (at least, that's what i'm making of this patch...) I think what i really like about debian's build system is that while most people use a makefile for debian/rules, you DON'T HAVE TO. you can use any sort of script you want, so long as it does what it needs to. You DON'T HAVE TO use debhelper to put files in the right locations and fix permissions. You DON'T HAVE TO do anything a specific way, so long as the result is the same. As far as everything being i386, that's lets debian be installable on more architectures, like the 386 laptop i'm typing this on right now. Redhat, Mandrake, etc wouldn't install... everything's pentium optimised. -- Aaron Haviland orion [at] tribble [dot] dyndns [dot] org orion [at] parsed [dot] net relevance is irrelevant.

March 14, 2002

Re: [Wlug] RE: [WPILA-Discuss] Gentoo Linux Distro

by Charles R. Anderson

On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:40:34AM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote: orion> > Just install pentium-builder, set the environment variable like it orion> > says to, and apt-get -b source <package> away! orion> orion> Well, hot damn. you're my new hero! Now I can still build optimised orion> local .debs and make non-optimised redistributable ones without messy orion> tweaking! RPM has had the ability to build for different architectures and optimize based on them since the beginning: rpm --rebuild --target=i386,i586,i686 foo.src.rpm Each distro includes RPM configuration files to define the build environment for that distro, including the optimization flags to use: optflags: i386 -O2 -march=i386 -mcpu=i686 optflags: i486 -O2 -march=i486 optflags: i586 -O2 -march=i586 optflags: i686 -O2 -march=i686 optflags: athlon -O2 -march=athlon optflags: ia64 -O2 They are usually passed to configure/make by setting variables in the .spec file (so you don't need to patch Makefiles): CC=$RPM_OPT_FLAGS ./configure make or even better, by using these macros, which will also cause the package to place all its files in the standard places that the distro has defined in the local RPM build environment (i.e., /usr/doc vs. /usr/share/doc): %configure make %makeinstall That way, when configure tests the compiler, it can be sure the compiler works with those optflags. Also, it doesn't require klugy scripts to override the compiler binary, etc., and can be used by any user, not just root (perhaps pentium-builder can too, I don't know). -- Charles R. Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> / http://angus.ind.wpi.edu/~cra/ PGP Key ID: 49BB5886 Fingerprint: EBA3 A106 7C93 FA07 8E15 3AC2 C367 A0F9 49BB 5886

March 14, 2002

Re: [Wlug] docs / latex /?

by Frank Sweetser

On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:26:48AM -0500, Bill Mills-Curran wrote: > Some years ago, I was a heavy Latex user, but it's been a while... > I've heard rumors that it now has a WYSIWYG interface. Is this true? There's LyX, which isn't half bad, but sometimes takes a little kicking to do odd things, and has it's own file format which is almost, but not quite, TeX. There's a few emacs packages for LaTeX (find 'em on freshmeat - I forget the names at the moment) that are supposed to give you a good inline preview. -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu, fs at suave.net | $ x 18 Full-time WPI Network Tech, Part time Linux/Perl guy | I think that's how Chicago got started. A bunch of people in New York said, 'Gee, I'm enjoying the crime and the poverty, but it just isn't cold enough. Let's go west.' --Richard Jeni

March 14, 2002

docs / latex /?

by Bill Mills-Curran

I need to generate some documents that look decent on the web and also print well. Some of the documents are forms for people to fill in, and, for the most part, the people are pretty unsophisticated. They may even just print the form and fill it in by hand. Some years ago, I was a heavy Latex user, but it's been a while... I've heard rumors that it now has a WYSIWYG interface. Is this true? At any rate, I'm looking for recommendations of something that can produce decent html (most word processors generate abysmal html) and decent printable stuff. (It would be very cool if I could produce the pdf "fill in the blanks" document.) Right now, I'm painfully generating the html in xemacs (very clean html) and then postscript and non-editable pdf from that. I've heard that docbook is good, but that it has a high learning curve. Suggestions? TIA, Bill

March 14, 2002

Re: [Wlug] RE: [WPILA-Discuss] Gentoo Linux Distro

by Aaron Haviland

Josh Huber said: > Aaron Haviland <orion(a)tribble.dyndns.org> writes: > > > apt-get source <package> && cd <package>-* && dpkg-buildpackage > > -rfakeroot -us -uc > > > > ... but iirc, it's not really optimised. to do that, you need to rebuild > > certain packages without certain tweaks that debian throws in. something > > about enabling certain i586 stuff, but still making them work on i386? > > (which is why all the debs say i386 instead of iX86) > > Well, for most of the optimizations, a very simple change can be made: > > $> apt-cache show pentium-builder > Package: pentium-builder > Priority: extra > Section: devel > Installed-Size: 80 > Maintainer: Alex Pennace <alex(a)pennace.org> > Architecture: all > Version: 0.17 > Depends: gcc | g++, perl > Filename: pool/main/p/pentium-builder/pentium-builder_0.17_all.deb > Size: 6604 > MD5sum: 25fd685abdcfd1e0ec6efc92a8d3e801 > Description: force pentium optimized compilation > Replaces gcc, cc, and g++ with scripts that build pentium optimized code. > (Other processors can be optimized for as well.) > . > By default, after installing this package, the compilers will behave > normally. However, if the environment variable DEBIAN_BUILDARCH=pentium > is set, they will enter pentium optimized compile mode. > > Just install pentium-builder, set the environment variable like it > says to, and apt-get -b source <package> away! Well, hot damn. you're my new hero! Now I can still build optimised local .debs and make non-optimised redistributable ones without messy tweaking! -- Aaron Haviland orion [at] tribble [dot] dyndns [dot] org orion [at] parsed [dot] net

March 14, 2002

Re: [Wlug] RE: [WPILA-Discuss] Gentoo Linux Distro

by Josh Huber

Aaron Haviland <orion(a)tribble.dyndns.org> writes: > apt-get source <package> && cd <package>-* && dpkg-buildpackage > -rfakeroot -us -uc > > ... but iirc, it's not really optimised. to do that, you need to rebuild > certain packages without certain tweaks that debian throws in. something > about enabling certain i586 stuff, but still making them work on i386? > (which is why all the debs say i386 instead of iX86) Well, for most of the optimizations, a very simple change can be made: $> apt-cache show pentium-builder Package: pentium-builder Priority: extra Section: devel Installed-Size: 80 Maintainer: Alex Pennace <alex(a)pennace.org> Architecture: all Version: 0.17 Depends: gcc | g++, perl Filename: pool/main/p/pentium-builder/pentium-builder_0.17_all.deb Size: 6604 MD5sum: 25fd685abdcfd1e0ec6efc92a8d3e801 Description: force pentium optimized compilation Replaces gcc, cc, and g++ with scripts that build pentium optimized code. (Other processors can be optimized for as well.) . By default, after installing this package, the compilers will behave normally. However, if the environment variable DEBIAN_BUILDARCH=pentium is set, they will enter pentium optimized compile mode. Just install pentium-builder, set the environment variable like it says to, and apt-get -b source <package> away! ttyl, -- Josh Huber

March 14, 2002