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Re: Dec meeting.. not the 14th! 21st or 28th?

by Cara Salter

On 12/7/23 21:08, Doug Mildram via WLUG wrote: > cara> I'd also be interested in how people are self-hosting their VPNs > (and john stoffel's view may be similar, I can't say, but hi anyways!) > > me/doug> I'm struggling with what's the benefit/motivation? For me, it lets me access my home network when I'm away from my apartment. > My take which started long ago: > 20-30 yrs ago as a sysadmin supporting remote access/workers, > my (very not-genius-level) brain learned that a VPN... > a box/product I'd install on "my"/work network, > handing out INside-access to outside-workers for a session.... > adds (pops up during session) a virtual interface > on home-computer network stack, so > while in a VPN session the home worker can magically > "have an ipaddr on the inside of workplace network" > thus allowed into not-public work servers (or drive their work desktop) > BUT! on server setup, I+bosses must decide if yes/no allowing split-tunnel > (policy set on VPN server which the VPN clients suffer with usually? if > "no split") > If yes/split-tunnel allowed, client gets a 2nd! default gateway = route > to 0.0.0.0 > giving best home-computer network performance (mixing work and play > works well) My split-tunnel VPN doesn't set a default gateway, just a route to 10.x.x.x/x. I'm thinking of shenanigans to let my roommates VPN into the normal resident network and letting myself VPN into the management network via jump box, but that's not implemented yet. Shenanigans with Packetfence are planned for the break... > BUT smart?/paranoid-workplace setups choose NO split tunnel, and > force home-user's (ISP-given) default route to either disappear? > or become unused via route metric/preference adjustment? so that, either way > "don't let the home worker's unsafe world anywhere to tunnel near/into > work network". I'm neither smart nor paranoid :p so I use split-tunnel. > So (now retired) I see endless TV ads for VPN's > preaching the benefits of their secure VPN, and I don't get it, .... > assume buyers/sheep are fooled. Real value = ? I may be blind, > but lacking a VPN, my outside/web traffic is still https / encrypted, > are they selling some enhanced default-gw world > featuring bad-guys-blocked-from-hacking-you? I trust my home router, > though I'm open minded to how "wide open" that might be, relative to > some ideal. Most commercial VPNs I've found have low quality. The one that I use when I want the benefits (different geolocation results, etc) is Mullvad, for a variety of reasons. Interested in other people's thoughts! -- cara

Dec. 8, 2023

Re: Dec meeting.. not the 14th! 21st or 28th?

by Jon "maddog" Hall

I travel internationally a LOT, and having a VPN host in the USA means I can access websites the same way I can from home for all of the reasons that Chuck mentioned. Recently this has been extended not only to movies, TV shows, etc. that are blocked in foreign countries because the USA advertisers can not get their pound of flesh from foreign viewers, but also because foreign governments may not allow access to those websites for various reasons. Also various financial and medical websites may not allow access from outside the USA even though I have an account on those systems and legitimate reasons for access. Using the VPN all the time means that the sites work the same no matter where my laptop or desktop is located. md md On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 9:54 AM Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 08, 2023 at 03:13:49AM -0500, Robert Schwein via WLUG wrote: > > On 12/8/2023 12:56 AM, Chuck Anderson via WLUG wrote: > > > (local sports broadcast blackouts). Or trick hotels into giving you > > > a better price--yes, hotels can hike the rates they present to you > > > if they think you are nearby--assuming you need last-minute > > > accomodations while you are away on vacation. > > > You've pretty much hit the high points Chuck. From my own experience > > when going overseas if I'm able to VPN to the country I'm going to, the > > rental car reservation is considerably less in cost to reserve that car > > than if I reserved it from state side. I'm assuming there is a > > difference between a poor native and a rich American. > > Oh right, I had the hotel thing backwards. It may be cheaper if you > appear to be in-country for hotels, rental cars, etc. > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/C6YTP… >

Dec. 8, 2023

Re: Dec meeting.. not the 14th! 21st or 28th?

by Chuck Anderson

On Fri, Dec 08, 2023 at 03:13:49AM -0500, Robert Schwein via WLUG wrote: > On 12/8/2023 12:56 AM, Chuck Anderson via WLUG wrote: > > (local sports broadcast blackouts). Or trick hotels into giving you > > a better price--yes, hotels can hike the rates they present to you > > if they think you are nearby--assuming you need last-minute > > accomodations while you are away on vacation. > You've pretty much hit the high points Chuck. From my own experience > when going overseas if I'm able to VPN to the country I'm going to, the > rental car reservation is considerably less in cost to reserve that car > than if I reserved it from state side. I'm assuming there is a > difference between a poor native and a rich American. Oh right, I had the hotel thing backwards. It may be cheaper if you appear to be in-country for hotels, rental cars, etc.

Dec. 8, 2023

Re: Dec meeting.. not the 14th! 21st or 28th?

by Robert Schwein

You've pretty much hit the high points Chuck. From my own experience when going overseas if I'm able to VPN to the country I'm going to, the rental car reservation is considerably less in cost to reserve that car than if I reserved it from state side. I'm assuming there is a difference between a poor native and a rich American. Bob On 12/8/2023 12:56 AM, Chuck Anderson via WLUG wrote: > On Thu, Dec 07, 2023 at 09:08:00PM -0500, Doug Mildram via WLUG wrote: >> So, maybe or maybe not, that's the kind of VPN I suspect they're selling, >> but I don't see the value for normal folks....or maybe anyone. (educate >> me!) >> Unless their hosted-server-world-route network security is a win. >> Thanks for listening, and my thursday's look better than usual this month, >> so hoping for WLUG virtually dec 14. -doug > Yes. Those "modern" VPNs are used for many reasons. Here are a couple: > > - To appear to servers/services that you are physically located in a > different geographical area. This can help you bypass > geographically restricted content, such as watching sports programs > that content owners don't want you to see based on where you live > (local sports broadcast blackouts). Or trick hotels into giving you > a better price--yes, hotels can hike the rates they present to you > if they think you are nearby--assuming you need last-minute > accomodations while you are away on vacation. > > - To hide your real IP address from servers and/or hide your browsing > from intermediaries (your ISP for example) for privacy. This could > be so you can avoid being tracked and having your browsing habits > sold to advertisers (something your ISP can easily do--SSL does not > hide DNS queries although that is changing with the availability of > DNS-over-HTTPS and similar), to hide from authorities/copyright > enforcers, or for life-and-death reasons (hide from unfriendly > governments.) > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list --wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email towlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account:https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings:https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive:https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org…

Dec. 8, 2023

Re: Dec meeting.. not the 14th! 21st or 28th?

by Chuck Anderson

On Thu, Dec 07, 2023 at 09:08:00PM -0500, Doug Mildram via WLUG wrote: > So, maybe or maybe not, that's the kind of VPN I suspect they're selling, > but I don't see the value for normal folks....or maybe anyone. (educate > me!) > Unless their hosted-server-world-route network security is a win. > Thanks for listening, and my thursday's look better than usual this month, > so hoping for WLUG virtually dec 14. -doug Yes. Those "modern" VPNs are used for many reasons. Here are a couple: - To appear to servers/services that you are physically located in a different geographical area. This can help you bypass geographically restricted content, such as watching sports programs that content owners don't want you to see based on where you live (local sports broadcast blackouts). Or trick hotels into giving you a better price--yes, hotels can hike the rates they present to you if they think you are nearby--assuming you need last-minute accomodations while you are away on vacation. - To hide your real IP address from servers and/or hide your browsing from intermediaries (your ISP for example) for privacy. This could be so you can avoid being tracked and having your browsing habits sold to advertisers (something your ISP can easily do--SSL does not hide DNS queries although that is changing with the availability of DNS-over-HTTPS and similar), to hide from authorities/copyright enforcers, or for life-and-death reasons (hide from unfriendly governments.)

Dec. 8, 2023

Re: Dec meeting.. not the 14th! 21st or 28th?

by Doug Mildram

cara> I'd also be interested in how people are self-hosting their VPNs (and john stoffel's view may be similar, I can't say, but hi anyways!) me/doug> I'm struggling with what's the benefit/motivation? My take which started long ago: 20-30 yrs ago as a sysadmin supporting remote access/workers, my (very not-genius-level) brain learned that a VPN... a box/product I'd install on "my"/work network, handing out INside-access to outside-workers for a session.... adds (pops up during session) a virtual interface on home-computer network stack, so while in a VPN session the home worker can magically "have an ipaddr on the inside of workplace network" thus allowed into not-public work servers (or drive their work desktop) BUT! on server setup, I+bosses must decide if yes/no allowing split-tunnel (policy set on VPN server which the VPN clients suffer with usually? if "no split") If yes/split-tunnel allowed, client gets a 2nd! default gateway = route to 0.0.0.0 giving best home-computer network performance (mixing work and play works well) BUT smart?/paranoid-workplace setups choose NO split tunnel, and force home-user's (ISP-given) default route to either disappear? or become unused via route metric/preference adjustment? so that, either way "don't let the home worker's unsafe world anywhere to tunnel near/into work network". Thus the downside! When workplace uplink is wimpy/ancient (e.g. T1/56kb then), and all home-user's internet traffic gets tunnelled in+out via WORK network pipe, envision as I had to discover, how that stinks awfully: adding+forcing+slowing-down home/play traffic via busy work pipe/route-to-0.0.0.0! Sorry to ramble, later I joined WPI netops, but not deep into security/VPN. (Frank/Chuck/Ben/John+more: I miss you all bigtime, I learned so much) So (now retired) I see endless TV ads for VPN's preaching the benefits of their secure VPN, and I don't get it, .... assume buyers/sheep are fooled. Real value = ? I may be blind, but lacking a VPN, my outside/web traffic is still https / encrypted, are they selling some enhanced default-gw world featuring bad-guys-blocked-from-hacking-you? I trust my home router, though I'm open minded to how "wide open" that might be, relative to some ideal. =====side rant, but I can tie it in :) One guy at work, long ago not WPI, did inappropriate network/chat/etc things on lunch/etc time, and ALL his internet traffic thru my/work router was directed to/from at a service/server which he subscribed to, with the benefit of anonymizing himself and hiding his uncool chat rooms (appearing to be elsewhere, tunnelling unsafe habits for work desktop whether sysadmin=netadmin=I was blocking them or not) Too bad for him though: cubicle wall height = below boss's eyeball from adjacent cubicle, and he got canned, while I helped his boss figure out what was going on. So, maybe or maybe not, that's the kind of VPN I suspect they're selling, but I don't see the value for normal folks....or maybe anyone. (educate me!) Unless their hosted-server-world-route network security is a win. Thanks for listening, and my thursday's look better than usual this month, so hoping for WLUG virtually dec 14. -doug On Thu, Dec 7, 2023 at 4:01 PM Cara Salter via WLUG <wlug(a)lists.wlug.org> wrote: > On 12/7/23 15:20, Tim Keller via WLUG wrote: > > That's true. Though, the 28th is now past xmas and likely people are > > going to be all over the place. > > > > For a topic, I was thinking about what VPN options are there for linux > > at this point? > > Obviously there's NordVPN, but there's also Proton as well. > > > > Something people might be interested in? > > > > I'd also be interested in how people are self-hosting their VPNs, > whether that's Wireguard, Wireguard with shenanigans on top, OpenVPN, or > something else. > > -- > cara > > _______________________________________________ > WLUG mailing list -- wlug(a)lists.wlug.org > To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)lists.wlug.org > Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ > Change Settings: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ > Web Forum/Archive: > https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/NUSZZ… >

Dec. 8, 2023

Re: Dec meeting.. not the 14th! 21st or 28th?

by John Stoffel

>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Keller <turbofx(a)gmail.com> writes: > That's true. Though, the 28th is now past xmas and likely people are > going to be all over the place. > For a topic, I was thinking about what VPN options are there for > linux at this point? Obviously there's NordVPN, but there's also > Proton as well. > Something people might be interested in? I'd also be interested in a talk about Wireguard and how to implement it in a couple of cases: 1. one end on home router/firewall, other end on remote device. - can I go from internal host to remote device? 2. just a pair of devices, seperated by a firewall - this is simpler, but more complicated than step 1. I've done SSH tunnels in the past, looking more for a generic way to do backups of a device in the cloud from my home backup server. WireGuard should be the ticket, but it's being annoying. John

Dec. 7, 2023

Re: Dec meeting.. not the 14th! 21st or 28th?

by Cara Salter

On 12/7/23 15:20, Tim Keller via WLUG wrote: > That's true. Though, the 28th is now past xmas and likely people are > going to be all over the place. > > For a topic, I was thinking about what VPN options are there for linux > at this point? > Obviously there's NordVPN, but there's also Proton as well. > > Something people might be interested in? > I'd also be interested in how people are self-hosting their VPNs, whether that's Wireguard, Wireguard with shenanigans on top, OpenVPN, or something else. -- cara

Dec. 7, 2023

Re: Dec meeting.. not the 14th! 21st or 28th?

by Tim Keller

That's true. Though, the 28th is now past xmas and likely people are going to be all over the place. For a topic, I was thinking about what VPN options are there for linux at this point? Obviously there's NordVPN, but there's also Proton as well. Something people might be interested in? On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 4:17 PM John Stoffel <john(a)stoffel.org> wrote: > > > I've got a conflict on the 14th. > > > Does the 21st or the 28th work for people? > > I think the 21st *might* be possible, but it's getting late in the > year. It would be lovely to see more people, and to get more feedback > on how the new meeting location is working out, especially for those > of you on Jitsi. > > Technocopia is a louder space, so it's hard for us to give good remote > meetings. > > > John > -- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Dec. 7, 2023

Re: Dec meeting.. not the 14th! 21st or 28th?

by John Stoffel

> I've got a conflict on the 14th. > Does the 21st or the 28th work for people? I think the 21st *might* be possible, but it's getting late in the year. It would be lovely to see more people, and to get more feedback on how the new meeting location is working out, especially for those of you on Jitsi. Technocopia is a louder space, so it's hard for us to give good remote meetings. John

Nov. 27, 2023