Hi all, Thanks for your helpful postings. I'm coming back to ask further help in sharpening issues before me.. I see four now: 1. Understanding the machine Wanting a more general perspective that will help me anticipate and navigate OS issues as they arise. Just ordered http://www.amazon.com/Write-Great-Code-Understanding-Machine/dp/1593270038/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249850224&sr=8-1 Anyone have reading (book, online) suggestions geared at accessible intro level? More intermediate level? 2. Getting a machine Freedom of choice in the component market is overwhelming. A curse, actually. I'd be losing significant time just learning how to spec a system. In the Worcester area, is there anyone I can pay to put together a machine for me with some bit of craftsmanship and reliability? That way I can have substantially more control over machine quality. Do any of you have a favorite components list? I'd be most interested in a machine designed for silence, and I'm quite willing to study up on that issue.. fan noise drives me nuts when I'm coding. What do you think about this workaround -- http://www.inatux.com/order These are FSF/FOSS people. I can't see a need for a super fast system yet, as I can't say yet where my project interests will gravitate. In light of that, since optimality makes no sense, what machine specs do you think would be “good enough”? Desirable packages to install? And, for cable broadband and live streaming of audio and video, what combination or package(s) of HW ad SW should I ask for. Wired case? Wireless case? 3. YOUR advice for a would be hacker? I wonder how folks in this forum might vary from the following position. Would you prioritize or sequence things differently? “Start out by learning bash, then set up your own Unix environment. This is a biggie. PC-BSD works fine. Learn to use it for your everyday tasks, learn how to administrate it and keep it up to date and secure. Then, when you've done that, start in with Python. Solve the Project Euler problems in whatever language you're learning. Learn which languages are better suited for particular problems. Learn about security in programs, vulnerabilities and how to exploit them. Read other people's code and post your own. Learn the low-level stuff later.” 4. What Linux distribution would you pair with Unix? And, what will I learn from one that I don't learn from the other? Thanks, in advance, for thoughts, reactions, give and take! Brian
Anyone have reading (book, online) suggestions geared at accessible intro level? More intermediate level?
Brian, I have recently read (most of) 'Code : The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software' by Charles Petzold. He takes the reader from the simple on/off flashlight circuit, through the mechanical relays found in telegraph systems, to fundamental computing devices -- and that is only just where I've read through (chapter 17 of 25) - It is available via the central mass library system - so free! I sincerely hope if you check it out, that you like it. Best wishes, Alexander
On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 6:43 PM, Brian McLinden<brian.mclinden@gmail.com> wrote:
3. YOUR advice for a would be hacker?
I wonder how folks in this forum might vary from the following position. Would you prioritize or sequence things differently?
“Start out by learning bash, then set up your own Unix environment. This is a biggie. PC-BSD works fine. Learn to use it for your everyday tasks, learn how to administrate it and keep it up to date and secure. Then, when you've done that, start in with Python. Solve the Project Euler problems in whatever language you're learning. Learn which languages are better suited for particular problems. Learn about security in programs, vulnerabilities and how to exploit them. Read other people's code and post your own. Learn the low-level stuff later.”
A starting hacker probably has some idea of the sort of problem they want to solve. Based on the type of problem you are looking to solve someone could steer you toward a choice of languages that try to solve such problems. There are 'introduction to programming' books for most programming languages and in some cases they might be found on line. If one is learning programming as a hobby then I would say learn about the stuff that interests you and follow your nose. Read from books and on line sources. Learn at least one programming language very well. Above all else spend a lot of time writing code - it is a skill after all. I've been meaning to put together a introduction presentation to the python language, but other priorities have my time right now. :-(
Brian McLinden wrote:
What do you think about this workaround -- http://www.inatux.com/order These are FSF/FOSS people. I can't see
I would recommend more than their base system. Go with a dual-core cpu and probably 2G memory, since it's so cheap now ($30-40 at newegg), and bigger hard drive (e.g. 250GB for around $50). How much do they want with those upgrades?
And, for cable broadband and live streaming of audio and video, what combination or package(s) of HW ad SW should I ask for. Wired case? Wireless case?
If you're talking about wired vs. wireless network, it's a lot easier to go with wired. Any linux distro will get you online with a basic desktop installation. (OK, there are probably exceptions.) You'll also get audio and video players. For audio and video, you might need to install additional codecs, but that's generally pretty easy to do. Why don't you want to install the OS yourself?
4. What Linux distribution would you pair with Unix?
And, what will I learn from one that I don't learn from the other?
I'm just going to reiterate what others said. You'll learn a lot from installing the OS yourself. Ubuntu is a good choice if you're new to linux, but anything in the top 5 or 10 in the list at distrowatch.com is probably a good choice. The installation procedure is pretty easy these days (on the major distros). Leave room on your hard drive for additional partitions to try other flavors of linux if you want. That's sometimes a better choice than trying it in a VM, because then you get to see how the OS works with your hardware. That tends to be more of an issue when you're using the latest hardware. Greg
Here's my .02 cents on building a machine. 1. Memory. You can never have too much of it. I'd say try to get a board that'll do 8GB with the expectation you'll be there at some point. 2. CPU: go duel at a minimum. If you could swing a quad I'd say go for it. 3. Video card: Get something that will do HDMI and is capable of duel head. I've got a Nvidia GeForce 8400 GS with 512MB of video memory and it cost me a whopping 40 dollars! 4. Harddrives: If your going to spring for 1, go ahead and buy two and then mirror them. Mirrored drives have now saved my ass on three occasions. 5. Case: Honestly I like cases that don't resemble a disco under my desk. I'm also fond of 120mm case fans. They move a shit load of air and are quiet. Power Supply: I wouldn't go smaller than a 350W. If you ever decide to suddenly add two more drives or a burner, nothing sucks more than your power supply being the weak link. 6. OS: Do it yourself. I'm not sure if Ubuntu will let you mirror drives at install, I know the Red Hat family of distros will. Doing your own install will at least give you an explicit understanding of what packages you've installed. Heck we could probably make a meeting out of helping you install and tweak your machine! Later, Tim. On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Gregory Avedissian <avedis.g@verizon.net>wrote:
Brian McLinden wrote:
What do you think about this workaround -- http://www.inatux.com/order These are FSF/FOSS people. I can't see
I would recommend more than their base system. Go with a dual-core cpu and probably 2G memory, since it's so cheap now ($30-40 at newegg), and bigger hard drive (e.g. 250GB for around $50). How much do they want with those upgrades?
And, for cable broadband and live streaming of audio and video, what combination or package(s) of HW ad SW should I ask for. Wired case? Wireless case?
If you're talking about wired vs. wireless network, it's a lot easier to go with wired. Any linux distro will get you online with a basic desktop installation. (OK, there are probably exceptions.) You'll also get audio and video players. For audio and video, you might need to install additional codecs, but that's generally pretty easy to do.
Why don't you want to install the OS yourself?
4. What Linux distribution would you pair with Unix?
And, what will I learn from one that I don't learn from the other?
I'm just going to reiterate what others said. You'll learn a lot from installing the OS yourself. Ubuntu is a good choice if you're new to linux, but anything in the top 5 or 10 in the list at distrowatch.com is probably a good choice. The installation procedure is pretty easy these days (on the major distros).
Leave room on your hard drive for additional partitions to try other flavors of linux if you want. That's sometimes a better choice than trying it in a VM, because then you get to see how the OS works with your hardware. That tends to be more of an issue when you're using the latest hardware.
Greg
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Tim> Here's my .02 cents on building a machine. I'm going to chime in here as well with my thoughts on system building options. 0. Motherboard. - integrated vs discrete graphics. This is a toughie. For a home server, I'd go integrated. Heck, I'd try to get something with a serial console so I could manage it without a KVM, since ideally the system will be headless most of the time and just serving data, etc. - PS/2 mouse/keyboard ports or all USB? Depends on what you have and whether you're replacing it all or using existing stuff. - PCIe slots. - unless you game, don't bother with lots of x16 slots, maybe two, but get as many slots as you can. If you have legacy PCI cards you want to use, that's another factor. Think long term expandability. Remember that PCIe x1 cards will fit in x4,8,16 slots, they just won't get the performance advantage. Doesn't go the other way though. - SATA ports on board. I'd get a bunch if I can, since if you ever load up the system with lots of drives, you want to put off the day you need a PCIe SATA board. This is why I like x4 or x8 slots for the future. 0b. Network Gigabit by default. Upgrade your home switch too. If you can, get dual Gig ports, but don't sweat it too much otherwise. - skip wireless for a desktop, unless you absolutely need to put it somehwere with only power access. Then get an 802.11n card for the system and upgrade your Access Point (AP) as well. Tim> 1. Memory. You can never have too much of it. I'd say try to Tim> get a board that'll do 8GB with the expectation you'll be there Tim> at some point. Absolutely. Spending more on memory is a better idea than more on a slightly faster CPU. Don't sweat DDR2 vs DDR3 at this time unless you're seriously number crunching. Tim> 2. CPU: go duel at a minimum. If you could swing a quad I'd say Tim> go for it. Dual. Sorry, being pedantic. But I agree. I also lean heavily towards AMD because I like that they've been doing documentation drops on their GPUs, and because I want CPU vendor competition, not just one vendor. But as a suggestion, graph CPU speed vs $$$ for a family of systems and look for the sweet spot, which is where the price goes up sharply for just a small gain in speed. Do the same for the number of cores, and put them on the same graph. Think about cache, etc. Right now, the Triple Core AMD X2s looks nice. For a set amount of $$$, I'd personally go with more cores vs higher speed. Also, NEVER overclock. It's just not worth it. Yeah, it makes you feel studly, but esp for a home server, you want stability and low power draw, since it will be on all the time. Oh yeah, think about power disappation. Try to get the lowest wattage parts you can. Another reason why more cores, slower clock freq and lower thermals can be a win. Again, think about whether you really need to spend $100 more to get 200 Mhz of speed. Think how much memory you could buy instead! Or disk space. Tim> 3. Video card: Get something that will do HDMI and is capable of Tim> duel head. I've got a Nvidia GeForce 8400 GS with 512MB of video Tim> memory and it cost me a whopping 40 dollars! The thing to think about is whether you go Dual HDMI, or one VGA and one HDMI. Or do you get Dual HDMI and an HDMI->VGA adaptor. One slot or two? Fanless or big honking fan? If you're not playing games, getting a video card which will have good opensource support is my metric. Go AMD. Also, quiet is nice. Tim> 4. Harddrives: If your going to spring for 1, go ahead and buy Tim> two and then mirror them. Mirrored drives have now saved my ass Tim> on three occasions. Hear hear! It's almost tempting to get an USB thumbdrive to boot from, and the two disks are just a mirror MD RAID setup, with LVM on top. Around $100/per drive is a sweet spot, you can get two 1Tb drives mirrored. Nice. Tim> 5. Case: Honestly I like cases that don't resemble a disco under Tim> my desk. I'm also fond of 120mm case fans. They move a shit Tim> load of air and are quiet. I've gotten and been really happy with the CoolerMaster Centurion 5 all black case without any windows. Lots of bays, nice clean design, plenty of IO ports up front to use with USB/Firewire. Tim> Power Supply: I wouldn't go smaller than a 350W. If you ever Tim> decide to suddenly add two more drives or a burner, nothing sucks Tim> more than your power supply being the weak link. Go with a quiet and energy efficient one if you can. Tim> 6. OS: Do it yourself. I'm not sure if Ubuntu will let you Tim> mirror drives at install, I know the Red Hat family of distros Tim> will. Doing your own install will at least give you an explicit Tim> understanding of what packages you've installed. Heck we could Tim> probably make a meeting out of helping you install and tweak your Tim> machine! Absolutely. Have fun with the system. John
I was wondering about why the original poster wanted to buy a system with FreeBSD/Linux installed by the manufacturer. Was the intent to support a freebsd/Linux friendly vendor, or was it to make everything easier. If possible I like to support Linux friendly vendor. But I can easily say that installing Linux is incredibly easy, especially when compared to installing windows, I don't know if you can justify extra cost just to support a Linux friendly vendor.
I just wanted to comment that installing Windows 7 is a significantly improved experience and its relative difficulty is probably not a selling point for Linux. Linux has plenty of other selling points and I've installed eeebuntu- NBR 3.01 on my wife's netbook, and it works really well but not perfectly. The installation was not foolproof though ( because a certain fool botched it without realizing it for about 2 months.) And some of the settings (acpi, for example) still need to modified in a text editor. Windows 7 on my quad core is not perfect either, (native backup is problematic, and something's keeping native DVD burning from working) but it also works really well. On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Sean Flynn <sflynn@flynnsplaza.com> wrote:
I was wondering about why the original poster wanted to buy a system with FreeBSD/Linux installed by the manufacturer. Was the intent to support a freebsd/Linux friendly vendor, or was it to make everything easier.
If possible I like to support Linux friendly vendor. But I can easily say that installing Linux is incredibly easy, especially when compared to installing windows, I don't know if you can justify extra cost just to support a Linux friendly vendor. _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug@mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Jim Dibb<jimdibb@gmail.com> wrote:
I just wanted to comment that installing Windows 7 is a significantly improved experience and its relative difficulty is probably not a selling point for Linux.
It is still a far cry from being able to use a Live CD and verify that the entire system will work perfectly before committing to an installation. Also, what I like to call the ``post-install blues'' have not yet been addressed in Windows: i.e., installing a sane browser, office software, etc. etc.
Linux has plenty of other selling points and I've installed eeebuntu- NBR 3.01 on my wife's netbook, and it works really well but not perfectly. The installation was not foolproof though ( because a certain fool botched it without realizing it for about 2 months.) And some of the settings (acpi, for example) still need to modified in a text editor.
A well-flogged dead horse of a point: at least when things don't work you can find out why and where and fix them by hand as opposed to not at all.
Windows 7 on my quad core is not perfect either, (native backup is problematic, and something's keeping native DVD burning from working) but it also works really well.
There are draconian restrictions on DVD codecs that may or may not have an impact on Windows's ability to do things right. Linux generally lets you do these things in a technically illegal manner depending on where you are and where the person writing the open-source codecs is. The new-fangled DRM-enabled hardware these days may also have something to do with it.
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Sean Flynn <sflynn@flynnsplaza.com> wrote:
I was wondering about why the original poster wanted to buy a system with FreeBSD/Linux installed by the manufacturer. Was the intent to support a freebsd/Linux friendly vendor, or was it to make everything easier.
If possible I like to support Linux friendly vendor. But I can easily say that installing Linux is incredibly easy, especially when compared to installing windows, I don't know if you can justify extra cost just to support a Linux friendly vendor. _______________________________________________ Wlug mailing list Wlug@mail.wlug.org http://mail.wlug.org/mailman/listinfo/wlug
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Good points. I used a Live-thumb-drive to preview eeebuntu. Of course it was also really the only way to install it. No CD on an Asus 901... :) On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 7:26 PM, J.R. Mauro <jrm8005@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Jim Dibb<jimdibb@gmail.com> wrote:
I just wanted to comment that installing Windows 7 is a significantly improved experience and its relative difficulty is probably not a selling point for Linux.
It is still a far cry from being able to use a Live CD and verify that the entire system will work perfectly before committing to an installation. Also, what I like to call the ``post-install blues'' have not yet been addressed in Windows: i.e., installing a sane browser, office software, etc. etc.
participants (9)
-
Alexander Haley -
Brian McLinden -
Gregory Avedissian -
J.R. Mauro -
James Gray -
Jim Dibb -
John Stoffel -
Sean Flynn -
Tim Keller