I figured since I hadn't seen this on the list I'd post it. I recently (and by recent I mean 2 - 3 months) re-installed Linux on my computer. I was a very satisfied Slack8 user but I wanted something more. For one, I wanted a package manager. So I thought I might dabble into Debian (seeing how that is supposedly the premiere distro). But one problem existed, Debian still used binaries. I wanted everything compiled from source so it was optimized for my system (yes, I am a geek and very proud of it). So I went searching for my distro. I searched and searched and just when I thought I wasn't going to find it, I found a distro called Sorcerer linux. WOW, I thought to myself, this does what I wanted. So I downloaded and installed it. I still hate it to this day. So then I continued my search and stubbled upon Gentoo linux on Slashdot. After being disappointed with Sorcerer, I wasn't expecting much, but little to my knowledge this distro would turn out the be the best distro I've ever tried (and I've tried close to 100 distro's of both unix and linux flavor). So I begin my install of Gentoo. Gentoo is still in late beta stages (the 1.0 release is scheduled for mid to late this month). The install was a little rocky, but unlike most linux distro's you can find the authors on their irc channel on opennetworks and they are a tremendous help. I have yet to have a problem that someone in that channel wasn't able to fix. Not to mention, some of the authors went here to WPI as they commented when they saw I was from WPI. This distro has it all. It has an amazing package management system which is simple to use and VERY powerful. Plus is compiles everything from source which means that your system is 100% optimized for your system (and yes it evern recompiles the gcc and stuff so that it is optimized), although you can now use bninaries optimized for i586. Not to mention you compile the kernel at install time so there is no more "stock" kernel business. You can get to business right away. Also, gentoo will only install what you want, making this as small or large of a system as you wish. IMHO, this is the best distro on the "market" today. I have even begun some devlopment for it. Just thought I'd share some thoughts on the newest distro of my liking. If anyone is interested, their website is, http://www.gentoo.org. They can also be found on irc at us.openprojects.net, channel #gentoo. I'm in the channel a lot so look for termleech or termr00t. Thoughts, comments, and flames are welcome. ---------------------- | Chuck Haines | | GDC Webmaster | | chaines@wpi.edu | | AOL IM: CyberGrex | ----------------------
Wow flame bait ;) Since you asked for it, random comments/flames inline. -- Doug Geiger runexe@counter.clue4all.net http://counter.clue4all.net/~runexe/ If you're crossing the nation in a covered wagon, it's better to have four strong oxen than 100 chickens. Chickens are OK but we can't make them work together yet. -- Ross Bott, Pyramid U.S., on multiprocessors at AUUGM '89.
-----Original Message----- From: discuss-admin@wpila.org [mailto:discuss-admin@wpila.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Haines Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 2:39 PM To: discuss@wpila.org; wlug@mail.wlug.org Subject: [WPILA-Discuss] Gentoo Linux Distro
I figured since I hadn't seen this on the list I'd post it. I recently (and by recent I mean 2 - 3 months) re-installed Linux on my computer. I was a very satisfied Slack8 user but I wanted something more. For one, I wanted a package manager. So I thought I might dabble into Debian (seeing how that is supposedly the premiere distro). But one problem existed, Debian still used binaries. I wanted everything compiled from source so it was optimized for my system (yes, I am a geek and very proud of it).
apt-get source <package> And I believe you can do similar w/SRPMS. Though I'll give that if I was going to go through all the trouble of compiling everything from source, personally I'd just grab .tar.gz of it all. Hell why bother with a distro?
So I went searching for my distro. I searched and searched and just when I thought I wasn't going to find it, I found a distro called Sorcerer linux. WOW, I thought to myself, this does what I wanted. So I downloaded and installed it. I still hate it to this day. So then I continued my search and stubbled upon Gentoo linux on Slashdot. After being disappointed with Sorcerer, I wasn't expecting much, but little to my knowledge this distro would turn out the be the best distro I've ever tried (and I've tried close to 100 distro's of both unix and linux flavor).
Damn, 100? How much free time do you have?
So I begin my install of Gentoo. Gentoo is still in late beta stages (the 1.0 release is scheduled for mid to late this month). The install was a little rocky, but unlike most linux distro's you can find the authors on their irc channel on opennetworks and they are a tremendous help. I have yet to have a problem that someone in that channel wasn't able to fix.
irc.debian.org - I use it and enjoy it ;).
Not to mention, some of the authors went here to WPI as they commented when they saw I was from WPI. This distro has it all. It has an amazing package management system which is simple to use and VERY powerful. Plus is compiles everything from source which means that your system is 100% optimized for your system (and yes it evern recompiles the gcc and stuff so that it is optimized), although you can now use bninaries optimized for i586. Not to mention you compile the kernel at install time so there is no more "stock" kernel business. You can get to business right away. Also, gentoo will only install what you want, making this as small or large of a system as you wish. IMHO, this is the best distro on the "market" today. I have even begun some devlopment for it.
Have you tried LinuxFromScratch? I remember talking to you about it...
Just thought I'd share some thoughts on the newest distro of my liking. If anyone is interested, their website is, http://www.gentoo.org. They can also be found on irc at us.openprojects.net, channel #gentoo. I'm in the channel a lot so look for termleech or termr00t.
'Course the REAL geeks just rewrite their own POSIX-like kernel from scratch and start their own distro based on it ;P.
Thoughts, comments, and flames are welcome.
---------------------- | Chuck Haines | | GDC Webmaster | | chaines@wpi.edu | | AOL IM: CyberGrex | ----------------------
_______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@wpila.org http://wpila.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
'Course the REAL geeks just rewrite their own POSIX-like kernel from scratch and start their own distro based on it ;P.
No, the real geeks fork an existing project, add "Open" to the name, and start badmouthing the original project at the top of their lungs. ;-) -b
Doug Geiger said:
Wow flame bait ;) Since you asked for it, random comments/flames inline.
-----Original Message----- From: discuss-admin@wpila.org [mailto:discuss-admin@wpila.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Haines
I figured since I hadn't seen this on the list I'd post it. I recently (and by recent I mean 2 - 3 months) re-installed Linux on my computer. I was a very satisfied Slack8 user but I wanted something more. For one, I wanted a package manager. So I thought I might dabble into Debian (seeing how that is supposedly the premiere distro). But one problem existed, Debian still used binaries. I wanted everything compiled from source so it was optimized for my system (yes, I am a geek and very proud of it).
apt-get source <package> And I believe you can do similar w/SRPMS. Though I'll give that if I was going to go through all the trouble of compiling everything from source, personally I'd just grab .tar.gz of it all. Hell why bother with a distro?
apt-get source <package> && cd <package>-* && dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -us -uc ... but iirc, it's not really optimised. to do that, you need to rebuild certain packages without certain tweaks that debian throws in. something about enabling certain i586 stuff, but still making them work on i386? (which is why all the debs say i386 instead of iX86) (research...research...research....) ah, here: http://ibiblio.org/gferg/ldp/giles/repository/repository-7.html
So I begin my install of Gentoo. Gentoo is still in late beta stages (the 1.0 release is scheduled for mid to late this month). The install was a little rocky, but unlike most linux distro's you can find the authors on their irc channel on opennetworks and they are a tremendous help. I have yet to have a problem that someone in that channel wasn't able to fix.
irc.debian.org - I use it and enjoy it ;).
which is just an alias for OPN, last i checked :) -- Aaron Haviland orion [at] tribble [dot] dyndns [dot] org orion [at] parsed [dot] net http://debian.parsed.net ICQ: 43079202
Aaron Haviland <orion@tribble.dyndns.org> writes:
apt-get source <package> && cd <package>-* && dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -us -uc
... but iirc, it's not really optimised. to do that, you need to rebuild certain packages without certain tweaks that debian throws in. something about enabling certain i586 stuff, but still making them work on i386? (which is why all the debs say i386 instead of iX86)
Well, for most of the optimizations, a very simple change can be made: $> apt-cache show pentium-builder Package: pentium-builder Priority: extra Section: devel Installed-Size: 80 Maintainer: Alex Pennace <alex@pennace.org> Architecture: all Version: 0.17 Depends: gcc | g++, perl Filename: pool/main/p/pentium-builder/pentium-builder_0.17_all.deb Size: 6604 MD5sum: 25fd685abdcfd1e0ec6efc92a8d3e801 Description: force pentium optimized compilation Replaces gcc, cc, and g++ with scripts that build pentium optimized code. (Other processors can be optimized for as well.) . By default, after installing this package, the compilers will behave normally. However, if the environment variable DEBIAN_BUILDARCH=pentium is set, they will enter pentium optimized compile mode. Just install pentium-builder, set the environment variable like it says to, and apt-get -b source <package> away! ttyl, -- Josh Huber
Josh Huber said:
Aaron Haviland <orion@tribble.dyndns.org> writes:
apt-get source <package> && cd <package>-* && dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -us -uc
... but iirc, it's not really optimised. to do that, you need to rebuild certain packages without certain tweaks that debian throws in. something about enabling certain i586 stuff, but still making them work on i386? (which is why all the debs say i386 instead of iX86)
Well, for most of the optimizations, a very simple change can be made:
$> apt-cache show pentium-builder Package: pentium-builder Priority: extra Section: devel Installed-Size: 80 Maintainer: Alex Pennace <alex@pennace.org> Architecture: all Version: 0.17 Depends: gcc | g++, perl Filename: pool/main/p/pentium-builder/pentium-builder_0.17_all.deb Size: 6604 MD5sum: 25fd685abdcfd1e0ec6efc92a8d3e801 Description: force pentium optimized compilation Replaces gcc, cc, and g++ with scripts that build pentium optimized code. (Other processors can be optimized for as well.) . By default, after installing this package, the compilers will behave normally. However, if the environment variable DEBIAN_BUILDARCH=pentium is set, they will enter pentium optimized compile mode.
Just install pentium-builder, set the environment variable like it says to, and apt-get -b source <package> away!
Well, hot damn. you're my new hero! Now I can still build optimised local .debs and make non-optimised redistributable ones without messy tweaking! -- Aaron Haviland orion [at] tribble [dot] dyndns [dot] org orion [at] parsed [dot] net
On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:40:34AM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote: orion> > Just install pentium-builder, set the environment variable like it orion> > says to, and apt-get -b source <package> away! orion> orion> Well, hot damn. you're my new hero! Now I can still build optimised orion> local .debs and make non-optimised redistributable ones without messy orion> tweaking! RPM has had the ability to build for different architectures and optimize based on them since the beginning: rpm --rebuild --target=i386,i586,i686 foo.src.rpm Each distro includes RPM configuration files to define the build environment for that distro, including the optimization flags to use: optflags: i386 -O2 -march=i386 -mcpu=i686 optflags: i486 -O2 -march=i486 optflags: i586 -O2 -march=i586 optflags: i686 -O2 -march=i686 optflags: athlon -O2 -march=athlon optflags: ia64 -O2 They are usually passed to configure/make by setting variables in the .spec file (so you don't need to patch Makefiles): CC=$RPM_OPT_FLAGS ./configure make or even better, by using these macros, which will also cause the package to place all its files in the standard places that the distro has defined in the local RPM build environment (i.e., /usr/doc vs. /usr/share/doc): %configure make %makeinstall That way, when configure tests the compiler, it can be sure the compiler works with those optflags. Also, it doesn't require klugy scripts to override the compiler binary, etc., and can be used by any user, not just root (perhaps pentium-builder can too, I don't know). -- Charles R. Anderson <cra@wpi.edu> / http://angus.ind.wpi.edu/~cra/ PGP Key ID: 49BB5886 Fingerprint: EBA3 A106 7C93 FA07 8E15 3AC2 C367 A0F9 49BB 5886
Charles R. Anderson said:
On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:40:34AM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote: orion> > Just install pentium-builder, set the environment variable like it orion> > says to, and apt-get -b source <package> away! orion> orion> Well, hot damn. you're my new hero! Now I can still build optimised orion> local .debs and make non-optimised redistributable ones without messy orion> tweaking!
RPM has had the ability to build for different architectures and optimize based on them since the beginning:
rpm --rebuild --target=i386,i586,i686 foo.src.rpm
it's not dpkg that has the problem. debian's gcc is patched so it defaults to i386 if the arch is any ix86, unless specified otherwise. (at least, that's what i'm making of this patch...) I think what i really like about debian's build system is that while most people use a makefile for debian/rules, you DON'T HAVE TO. you can use any sort of script you want, so long as it does what it needs to. You DON'T HAVE TO use debhelper to put files in the right locations and fix permissions. You DON'T HAVE TO do anything a specific way, so long as the result is the same. As far as everything being i386, that's lets debian be installable on more architectures, like the 386 laptop i'm typing this on right now. Redhat, Mandrake, etc wouldn't install... everything's pentium optimised. -- Aaron Haviland orion [at] tribble [dot] dyndns [dot] org orion [at] parsed [dot] net relevance is irrelevant.
On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:06:54PM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote:
it's not dpkg that has the problem. debian's gcc is patched so it defaults to i386 if the arch is any ix86, unless specified otherwise. (at least, that's what i'm making of this patch...)
Actually, that's standard gcc behavior, which redhat has as well. The difference here is that (if I understand things correctly) if you want to compile a package for iX86 where X != 3, then you have to download and install a package which *changes the default for every compile on the whole system*. As Charles mentioned, the way that RPM does it is by macros. You tell RPM "I want to build this particular packate for i586". It then goes off, and via the correct configure macros, adds the flags to gcc (probably the same flags that the debian package makes the system wide default) to compile *only* that package for i586. So if I'm a random user who wants to compile a package on a i686 platform to be run on a 386, and the sysadmin has installed the i686 package, that means that I have to do *extra* work to get *standard* behavior! Someone please tell me if I'm wrong, because that seems like a pretty hackish way to do things. -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu, fs at suave.net | $ x 18 Full-time WPI Network Tech, Part time Linux/Perl guy | The UNIX system has a command, nice, which allows a user to voluntarily reduce the priority of his process, in order to be nice to the other users. Nobody ever uses it. -A. Tanenbaum, _Modern Operating Systems_
Frank Sweetser said:
On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:06:54PM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote:
it's not dpkg that has the problem. debian's gcc is patched so it defaults to i386 if the arch is any ix86, unless specified otherwise. (at least, that's what i'm making of this patch...)
Actually, that's standard gcc behavior, which redhat has as well.
Well, I seem to remember seeing something... somewhere... to some effect that I'm not entirely sure of... and I can't find it anymore... (sadly, this is how my mind usually works. broken and partial memories)
The difference here is that (if I understand things correctly) if you want to compile a package for iX86 where X != 3, then you have to download and install a package which *changes the default for every compile on the whole system*. As Charles mentioned, the way that RPM does it is by macros. You tell RPM "I want to build this particular packate for i586". It then goes off, and via the correct configure macros, adds the flags to gcc (probably the same flags that the debian package makes the system wide default) to compile *only* that package for i586.
So if I'm a random user who wants to compile a package on a i686 platform to be run on a 386, and the sysadmin has installed the i686 package, that means that I have to do *extra* work to get *standard* behavior!
Someone please tell me if I'm wrong, because that seems like a pretty hackish way to do things.
pentium-builder is a wrapper for gcc/g++ that iff DEBIAN_BUILDARCH is set, runs gcc/g++ with -march=$DEBIAN_BUILDARCH -mcpu=$DEBIAN_BUILDARCH, otherwise it just runs gcc/g++. it's transparant to whatever called gcc. you don't have to specify DEBIAN_BUILDARCH=i386 to revert to default. the name "pentium-builder" doesn't mean it's specifically for pentium. as for it being hackish... from the pentium-builder README: Why did I do it this way? There are alternatives after all. I could just set CFLAGS or GCC, or I could place the shell script wrappers in a separate directory and set the PATH to point to them when you want to build pentium optimized stuff. The problem with all these ideas is that I can imagine packages that would circumvent them. It's a hack, but it works. I welcome a cleaner solution. ... on another note, i've compiled povray for k6 and pentium and timed them, aka "time ./povray" running on a k6 machine, the k6 optimised one consistently runs 1 second faster overall (33 seconds total) but the pentium optimised one has a .1 second lower sys time. which is better? (i don't have the output anymore. just thought i'd ask while on the topic of optimising) (yes, i read the time manpage. just doesn't seem to sink in through this thick skull :) ) -- Aaron Haviland orion [at] tribble [dot] dyndns [dot] org orion [at] parsed [dot] net A man on a slushy bender can do some crazy things.
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Aaron Haviland wrote:
on another note, i've compiled povray for k6 and pentium and timed them, aka "time ./povray"
running on a k6 machine, the k6 optimised one consistently runs 1 second faster overall (33 seconds total) but the pentium optimised one has a .1 second lower sys time. which is better? (i don't have the output anymore. just thought i'd ask while on the topic of optimising) (yes, i read the time manpage. just doesn't seem to sink in through this thick skull :) )
Well, as I keep reminding my co-workers "The only measurement of performace that counts is wall time." So I would say the 1 second faster overall is better. Scott
Frank Sweetser <fs@WPI.EDU> writes:
Someone please tell me if I'm wrong, because that seems like a pretty hackish way to do things.
Yeah, you're wrong. Please read what I posted, especially: "By default, after installing this package, the compilers will behave normally. However, if the environment variable DEBIAN_BUILDARCH=pentium is set, they will enter pentium optimized compile mode." But yeah, it's still somewhat of a hack, but just installing the package does not change it for ALL builds. Actually, the name of this package is somewhat wrong, in that you can use it to switch optimization settings for other systems (i.e. for any of the 11 supported architectures)... -- Josh Huber
On Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 05:35:26PM -0500, Josh Huber wrote:
Frank Sweetser <fs@WPI.EDU> writes:
Someone please tell me if I'm wrong, because that seems like a pretty hackish way to do things.
Yeah, you're wrong. Please read what I posted, especially:
"By default, after installing this package, the compilers will behave normally. However, if the environment variable DEBIAN_BUILDARCH=pentium is set, they will enter pentium optimized compile mode."
Okay, that's not nearly so bad. I still prefer the rpm way, but that's a reasonable solution as well =) -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu, fs at suave.net | $ x 18 Full-time WPI Network Tech, Part time Linux/Perl guy | When I have a kid, I want to buy one of those strollers for twins. Then put the kid in and run around, looking frantic. -- Stephen Wright
On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:06:54PM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote: orion> As far as everything being i386, that's lets debian be installable on orion> more architectures, like the 386 laptop i'm typing this on right now. orion> Redhat, Mandrake, etc wouldn't install... everything's pentium orion> optimised. Red Hat is not Pentium optimized. They do however provide i586 and i686 kernel and glibc packages that will be installed only if the system supports them. -- Charles R. Anderson <cra@wpi.edu> / http://angus.ind.wpi.edu/~cra/ PGP Key ID: 49BB5886 Fingerprint: EBA3 A106 7C93 FA07 8E15 3AC2 C367 A0F9 49BB 5886
Charles R. Anderson said:
On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:06:54PM -0500, Aaron Haviland wrote: orion> As far as everything being i386, that's lets debian be installable on orion> more architectures, like the 386 laptop i'm typing this on right now. orion> Redhat, Mandrake, etc wouldn't install... everything's pentium orion> optimised.
Red Hat is not Pentium optimized. They do however provide i586 and i686 kernel and glibc packages that will be installed only if the system supports them.
Hmmm. I can't find the redhat or mandrake cds i tried a couple years ago... but i seem to recall that i was unable to completely install because something was compiled for i586 and wouldn't run. honestly can't remember, it was too long ago. *shrug* sorry if i'm spreading bad information. a bad experience will do that to me :) -- Aaron Haviland orion [at] tribble [dot] dyndns [dot] org orion [at] parsed [dot] net "Boys in bed, girls in bed All now go to sleep Sleep, sweet dreams Wake to a new today tomorrow"
participants (8)
-
Aaron Haviland -
Brian J. Conway -
Charles R. Anderson -
Chuck Haines -
Doug Geiger -
Frank Sweetser -
Josh Huber -
Scott Venier