M-DISC 1000-year DVD and Blu-Ray
Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC: https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-1000-year-dvd-is-here/ https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS
"Chuck" == Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC:
https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS
I see you can still buy the media and the drives to _write_ as of recently. Has anyone actually used these? I did find this interesting site: https://obsoletemedia.org And I currently have an external 2Tb USB harddrive in my safe deposit box with family photos and such. I should really buy a new one and do a swap so I have another sitting around. John
Here's a question... in a 1000 years.. will you even have a drive that could read such a disk? You'd need to store details manuals with how to construct a drive and the format of the disks. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:55 AM John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
"Chuck" == Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC:
https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS
I see you can still buy the media and the drives to _write_ as of recently. Has anyone actually used these?
I did find this interesting site:
And I currently have an external 2Tb USB harddrive in my safe deposit box with family photos and such. I should really buy a new one and do a swap so I have another sitting around.
John _______________________________________________ WLUG mailing list -- wlug@lists.wlug.org To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave@lists.wlug.org Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/LGDTBY...
-- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".
Let's be honest - if you gave someone a BlueRay disk *today*, there's a pretty good chance they'd have to go hunting around to find some hardware to read it. 1,000 years from now, you'd have to: - Set up the appropriate laser hardware to scan the physical medium at the appropriate resolution, frequency, etc, while not going so high power that you damage the disc. - Translate the physical pits on the disc to a bitstream. - Translate the bitstream as a filesystem data. - Translate the contents of the files (anyone still have a copy of Word 95?) This technology is probably fantastic on a scale of a few decades, so long as you're careful about which file formats you pick, but if you're serious about centuries or more you'd probably have to stick to something that requires no technology to read, like engravings on glass or non-corrosive metals. (For extra fun, just imagine the fun in a few centuries when amateur archeologists try to figure out these funny markings that turn out to be QR codes https://monuments.com/store/headstones-accessories/living-headstones-qr-code ) On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:01 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
Here's a question... in a 1000 years.. will you even have a drive that could read such a disk? You'd need to store details manuals with how to construct a drive and the format of the disks.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:55 AM John Stoffel via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
> "Chuck" == Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC:
https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS
I see you can still buy the media and the drives to _write_ as of recently. Has anyone actually used these?
I did find this interesting site:
And I currently have an external 2Tb USB harddrive in my safe deposit box with family photos and such. I should really buy a new one and do a swap so I have another sitting around.
John _______________________________________________ WLUG mailing list -- wlug@lists.wlug.org To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave@lists.wlug.org Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/LGDTBY...
-- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers". _______________________________________________ WLUG mailing list -- wlug@lists.wlug.org To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave@lists.wlug.org Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/AIZH54...
-- - Frank
Ignoring the 1000-year hype, I think it all depends on how much the archivist community adopts the technology. If archivists decide that M-DISC is a good solution, then the technology to read them will be kept alive for that purpose at least long enough to copy the data to a future format for the next span of time. If that is 30 or 50 or 100 years, you are already doing much better than other types of digital media at this storage density. Luckily M-DISC is just standard Blu-Ray at the physical layer. All Blu-Ray drives can read M-DISC media, and all Blu-Ray writable drives can write to M-DISC media. The same is not true of writing to M-DISC DVDs--apparently some DVD-R drives do not have a strong enough laser to write to M-DISC DVD. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 01:13:04PM -0500, Frank Sweetser wrote:
Let's be honest - if you gave someone a BlueRay disk *today*, there's a pretty good chance they'd have to go hunting around to find some hardware to read it. 1,000 years from now, you'd have to:
- Set up the appropriate laser hardware to scan the physical medium at the appropriate resolution, frequency, etc, while not going so high power that you damage the disc. - Translate the physical pits on the disc to a bitstream. - Translate the bitstream as a filesystem data. - Translate the contents of the files (anyone still have a copy of Word 95?)
This technology is probably fantastic on a scale of a few decades, so long as you're careful about which file formats you pick, but if you're serious about centuries or more you'd probably have to stick to something that requires no technology to read, like engravings on glass or non-corrosive metals.
(For extra fun, just imagine the fun in a few centuries when amateur archeologists try to figure out these funny markings that turn out to be QR codes https://monuments.com/store/headstones-accessories/living-headstones-qr-code )
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:01 PM Tim Keller via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
Here's a question... in a 1000 years.. will you even have a drive that could read such a disk? You'd need to store details manuals with how to construct a drive and the format of the disks.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:55 AM John Stoffel via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
>> "Chuck" == Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC:
https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS
I see you can still buy the media and the drives to _write_ as of recently. Has anyone actually used these?
I did find this interesting site:
And I currently have an external 2Tb USB harddrive in my safe deposit box with family photos and such. I should really buy a new one and do a swap so I have another sitting around.
In 1975 I was working for Aetna Life and Casualty in Hartford, Connecticut. At that time Aetna was the largest multiline Insurance company and also the largest commercial user of IBM equipment in the "Free World" (which goes to show that with enough qualifiers you can be the best of anything). In any case we had 500,000 12" magnetic tape drives on site, with another 100,000 in a salt mine for "long term storage". For those tapes the "retention time" was 9999 years. Some of the older tapes were marked as seven-track, 128 bits-per-inch. I asked my boss about trying to read those tapes, and he assured me there was a seven-track tape drive stored along with the tapes, wrapped in bubble wrap. "Yes", I said, "but where is the computer that can attach to that tape drive, and the OS that can drive the tape controller, and the operator that can boot and run that operating system?" My boss put his finger to his lips and said 'Shhhhhhhhh". md On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 1:39 PM Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
Ignoring the 1000-year hype, I think it all depends on how much the archivist community adopts the technology. If archivists decide that M-DISC is a good solution, then the technology to read them will be kept alive for that purpose at least long enough to copy the data to a future format for the next span of time. If that is 30 or 50 or 100 years, you are already doing much better than other types of digital media at this storage density.
Luckily M-DISC is just standard Blu-Ray at the physical layer. All Blu-Ray drives can read M-DISC media, and all Blu-Ray writable drives can write to M-DISC media. The same is not true of writing to M-DISC DVDs--apparently some DVD-R drives do not have a strong enough laser to write to M-DISC DVD.
Let's be honest - if you gave someone a BlueRay disk *today*, there's a pretty good chance they'd have to go hunting around to find some hardware to read it. 1,000 years from now, you'd have to:
- Set up the appropriate laser hardware to scan the physical medium at the appropriate resolution, frequency, etc, while not going so high
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 01:13:04PM -0500, Frank Sweetser wrote: power
that you damage the disc. - Translate the physical pits on the disc to a bitstream. - Translate the bitstream as a filesystem data. - Translate the contents of the files (anyone still have a copy of Word 95?)
This technology is probably fantastic on a scale of a few decades, so long as you're careful about which file formats you pick, but if you're serious about centuries or more you'd probably have to stick to something that requires no technology to read, like engravings on glass or non-corrosive metals.
(For extra fun, just imagine the fun in a few centuries when amateur archeologists try to figure out these funny markings that turn out to be QR codes
)
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:01 PM Tim Keller via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
Here's a question... in a 1000 years.. will you even have a drive that could read such a disk? You'd need to store details manuals with how to construct a drive and
https://monuments.com/store/headstones-accessories/living-headstones-qr-code the
format of the disks.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:55 AM John Stoffel via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Anderson via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
Last night we were talking about long-term storage media that won't degrade or fail. What you want is M-DISC:
https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-98913-M-Disc-100GB-Surface/dp/B017H13DFS
I see you can still buy the media and the drives to _write_ as of recently. Has anyone actually used these?
I did find this interesting site:
And I currently have an external 2Tb USB harddrive in my safe deposit box with family photos and such. I should really buy a new one and do a swap so I have another sitting around.
WLUG mailing list -- wlug@lists.wlug.org To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave@lists.wlug.org Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/FRXWYR...
"Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
In 1975 I was working for Aetna Life and Casualty in Hartford, Connecticut. At that time Aetna was the largest multiline Insurance company and also the largest commercial user of IBM equipment in the "Free World" (which goes to show that with enough qualifiers you can be the best of anything).
In any case we had 500,000 12" magnetic tape drives on site, with another 100,000 in a salt mine for "long term storage". For those tapes the "retention time" was 9999 years.
Some of the older tapes were marked as seven-track, 128 bits-per-inch.
I asked my boss about trying to read those tapes, and he assured me there was a seven-track tape drive stored along with the tapes, wrapped in bubble wrap.
"Yes", I said, "but where is the computer that can attach to that tape drive, and the OS that can drive the tape controller, and the operator that can boot and run that operating system?"
My boss put his finger to his lips and said 'Shhhhhhhhh".
I'm in the same boat with 43,000+ pieces of media offsite at Iron Mountain in a mix of DAT, DLT 7k, SDLT320 and LTO6 media that might need to be restored. And let's ignore the 8mm tapes that sat in a couple of boxes for 15+ yeats without anyone touching them ... even after I scrapped the tape library to read them.
If anyone is looking for an external optical drive that can handle blu-ray and M-DISC, then this is the model I endorse: https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Computer/Computer+Drives/BDR-XD08UMB... I've been able to read all kinds of blu-rays with it, including UHD. It also uses USB-C which saves so much trouble finding the right cable. And no drivers necessary for running on Linux! Optical media is increasingly uncommon these days, so I can understand why almost no new computers come with them, however external optical drives still have their uses. I've definitely gotten a lot of use with mine with all of the movies I check out from the library! - Josh On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 5:48 PM John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
"Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
In 1975 I was working for Aetna Life and Casualty in Hartford, Connecticut. At that time Aetna was the largest multiline Insurance company and also the largest commercial user of IBM equipment in the "Free World" (which goes to show that with enough qualifiers you can be the best of anything).
In any case we had 500,000 12" magnetic tape drives on site, with another 100,000 in a salt mine for "long term storage". For those tapes the "retention time" was 9999 years.
Some of the older tapes were marked as seven-track, 128 bits-per-inch.
I asked my boss about trying to read those tapes, and he assured me there was a seven-track tape drive stored along with the tapes, wrapped in bubble wrap.
"Yes", I said, "but where is the computer that can attach to that tape drive, and the OS that can drive the tape controller, and the operator that can boot and run that operating system?"
My boss put his finger to his lips and said 'Shhhhhhhhh".
I'm in the same boat with 43,000+ pieces of media offsite at Iron Mountain in a mix of DAT, DLT 7k, SDLT320 and LTO6 media that might need to be restored.
And let's ignore the 8mm tapes that sat in a couple of boxes for 15+ yeats without anyone touching them ... even after I scrapped the tape library to read them.
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John, I will see you all of those pieces of media and raise you about 19,000 35mm slides to scan in. md On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 5:47 PM John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org> wrote:
"Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
In 1975 I was working for Aetna Life and Casualty in Hartford, Connecticut. At that time Aetna was the largest multiline Insurance company and also the largest commercial user of IBM equipment in the "Free World" (which goes to show that with enough qualifiers you can be the best of anything).
In any case we had 500,000 12" magnetic tape drives on site, with another 100,000 in a salt mine for "long term storage". For those tapes the "retention time" was 9999 years.
Some of the older tapes were marked as seven-track, 128 bits-per-inch.
I asked my boss about trying to read those tapes, and he assured me there was a seven-track tape drive stored along with the tapes, wrapped in bubble wrap.
"Yes", I said, "but where is the computer that can attach to that tape drive, and the OS that can drive the tape controller, and the operator that can boot and run that operating system?"
My boss put his finger to his lips and said 'Shhhhhhhhh".
I'm in the same boat with 43,000+ pieces of media offsite at Iron Mountain in a mix of DAT, DLT 7k, SDLT320 and LTO6 media that might need to be restored.
And let's ignore the 8mm tapes that sat in a couple of boxes for 15+ yeats without anyone touching them ... even after I scrapped the tape library to read them.
"Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
I will see you all of those pieces of media and raise you about 19,000 35mm slides to scan in.
LOL! I've got some slides too... but not nearly that many.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 5:47 PM John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org> wrote:
"Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
In 1975 I was working for Aetna Life and Casualty in Hartford, Connecticut. At that time Aetna was the largest multiline Insurance company and also the largest commercial user of IBM equipment in the "Free World" (which goes to show that with enough qualifiers you can be the best of anything).
In any case we had 500,000 12" magnetic tape drives on site, with another 100,000 in a salt mine for "long term storage". For those tapes the "retention time" was 9999 years.
Some of the older tapes were marked as seven-track, 128 bits-per-inch.
I asked my boss about trying to read those tapes, and he assured me there was a seven-track tape drive stored along with the tapes, wrapped in bubble wrap.
"Yes", I said, "but where is the computer that can attach to that tape drive, and the OS that can drive the tape controller, and the operator that can boot and run that operating system?"
My boss put his finger to his lips and said 'Shhhhhhhhh".
I'm in the same boat with 43,000+ pieces of media offsite at Iron Mountain in a mix of DAT, DLT 7k, SDLT320 and LTO6 media that might need to be restored.
And let's ignore the 8mm tapes that sat in a couple of boxes for 15+ yeats without anyone touching them ... even after I scrapped the tape library to read them.
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The problem is one of organization. Let's imagine you get these all scanned in, now you've got +/- ~19,000 pictures to sort. On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:44 PM John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
"Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
I will see you all of those pieces of media and raise you about 19,000 35mm slides to scan in.
LOL! I've got some slides too... but not nearly that many.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 5:47 PM John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org> wrote:
> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
In 1975 I was working for Aetna Life and Casualty in Hartford, Connecticut. At that time Aetna was the largest multiline Insurance company and also the largest commercial user of IBM equipment in the "Free World" (which goes to show that with enough qualifiers you can be the best of anything).
In any case we had 500,000 12" magnetic tape drives on site, with another 100,000 in a salt mine for "long term storage". For those tapes the "retention time" was 9999 years.
Some of the older tapes were marked as seven-track, 128 bits-per-inch.
I asked my boss about trying to read those tapes, and he assured me there was a seven-track tape drive stored along with the tapes, wrapped in bubble wrap.
"Yes", I said, "but where is the computer that can attach to that tape drive, and the OS that can drive the tape controller, and the operator that can boot and run that operating system?"
My boss put his finger to his lips and said 'Shhhhhhhhh".
I'm in the same boat with 43,000+ pieces of media offsite at Iron Mountain in a mix of DAT, DLT 7k, SDLT320 and LTO6 media that might need to be restored.
And let's ignore the 8mm tapes that sat in a couple of boxes for 15+ yeats without anyone touching them ... even after I scrapped the tape library to read them.
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-- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".
"Tim" == Tim Keller <turbofx@gmail.com> writes:
The problem is one of organization. Let's imagine you get these all scanned in, now you've got +/- ~19,000 pictures to sort.
Same with the tapes... just cause I know which tape has which files tells me nothing about how useful that file will be... it's always a pain to archive an old ASIC chip design because you need: 1. design files 2. the specific tool versions 3. OS and hardware for the tools 4. licenses for the tools! - good luck when alot of the vendors are bought out or shutdown 5. someone who knows how to run steps 1-4. 6. the same process at the FAB running to make the chips... So archiving a design is not simple or cheap. You really don't want the intermediate files honestly, just the initial VHDL and rough layout tools are probably enough for anything older than 5 years since you'll have to re-spin the workflow anyway, unless you're lucky enough to still have it hanging around. Once you hit ten yeats... all bets are off. Now with scanning in those slides, I'd just toss them into 'photoprism' and let it classify them for me. Will it be perfect? No, but it did a decent job on my 70,000+ images I tossed at it. Took a few days since I don't have NVidia CPUs to run the classifier on for a speed up. But it did a neat job. And it even find obects as well. Very cool stuff.
Organization of the 19,000 slides might not be as bad as you think. Each box of 24-36 slides is marked with a date of development, so each box goes into a different directory according to the date on the box. Averaging about 30 slides a box that means I would have 634 directories, Often on a trip I would take two or three rolls of film, so those two or three directories might, when sorted, clump together to be labeled as some trip or special event. And, as John said, Photoprism can do an amazing job of identifying things, and I am planning on installing these and my other (tens of thousands of) digital pictures on a 6 TB Raid system with a Raspberry Pi controlling it, so it can take as long as it wants to identify and categorize the slides. The slides I already have digitized are either from Kodak PhotoCDs or various digital cameras that I have had over the years, and already are in the directories by date....so I am pretty much there. Of course I often wonder if anyone will care about the pictures after I die.....but perhaps some people will like to see them...and I do have to cull through the NSFW pictures.... md On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 9:51 AM Tim Keller <turbofx@gmail.com> wrote:
The problem is one of organization. Let's imagine you get these all scanned in, now you've got +/- ~19,000 pictures to sort.
On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:44 PM John Stoffel via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:
> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
I will see you all of those pieces of media and raise you about 19,000 35mm slides to scan in.
LOL! I've got some slides too... but not nearly that many.
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 5:47 PM John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org> wrote:
>> "Jon" == Jon \"maddog\" Hall via WLUG <wlug@lists.wlug.org> writes:
In 1975 I was working for Aetna Life and Casualty in Hartford, Connecticut. At that time Aetna was the largest multiline Insurance company and also the largest commercial user of IBM equipment in the "Free World" (which goes to show that with enough qualifiers you can be the best of anything).
In any case we had 500,000 12" magnetic tape drives on site, with another 100,000 in a salt mine for "long term storage". For those tapes the "retention time" was 9999 years.
Some of the older tapes were marked as seven-track, 128 bits-per-inch.
I asked my boss about trying to read those tapes, and he assured me there was a seven-track tape drive stored along with the tapes, wrapped in bubble wrap.
"Yes", I said, "but where is the computer that can attach to that tape drive, and the OS that can drive the tape controller, and the operator that can boot and run that operating system?"
My boss put his finger to his lips and said 'Shhhhhhhhh".
I'm in the same boat with 43,000+ pieces of media offsite at Iron Mountain in a mix of DAT, DLT 7k, SDLT320 and LTO6 media that might need to be restored.
And let's ignore the 8mm tapes that sat in a couple of boxes for 15+ yeats without anyone touching them ... even after I scrapped the
tape
library to read them.
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-- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".
participants (6)
-
Chuck Anderson -
Frank Sweetser -
John Stoffel -
Jon "maddog" Hall -
Joshua Stone -
Tim Keller