No idea, but since IBM now owns Red Hat, and since the President of IBM is now Jim Whitehurst who was the former President and CEO of Red Hat, I will assume that even though IBM no longer owns Lenovo that there may be a range of laptops that run Fedora, not just "the low end". Just guessin' md On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:10 PM Gelman, Ian S. wrote:

Do we think Lenovo will apply Dell's lessons learned from the early 2010s back when they tried to ship Ubuntu on their entry-level laptops?

Ian (from mobile device)

------------------------------ *From:* Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2020 12:01:01 PM *To:* Worcester Linux Users' Group General Discussion

...

*Cc:* Joshua Stone ; Jon "maddog" Hall < jon.maddog.hall@gmail.com> *Subject:* [EXT] [WLUG] Re: Lenovo shipping Linux pre-installed

Hi,

In theory this will help other GNU/Linux distros too, since eventually the device drivers for all of the parts of the laptops will go upstream and down to the distributions.

My findings with Lenovo (and IBM before them) was that they had pretty good support for the devices anyway, it is just that you might have to "dicker" with them to get the support working. I always attributed this (in the beginning anyway) to Ted T'so working for IBM and using Thinkpads as his own, personal laptop...but that might just be urban legend.

Good news in any case.

md

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:56 AM Joshua Stone via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:

Hey everyone,

Apparently Lenovo is planning on shipping Fedora on their Thinkpad lines, and will use only packages from the official repos instead of custom packages.

I think this is great news as somebody who shopped for Thinkpads before and had to contact support about refunding a Windows license (turns out that wasn't possible at the time). Having a distro pre-installed should mean improved hardware compatibility, and maybe even be able contact support for Linux-specific issues.

More info here:

https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops/ https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffedoramagazine.org%2Fcoming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cisgelman%40wpi.edu%7Cf05208e4eadd46ae6c6308d7e868c25d%7C589c76f5ca1541f9884b55ec15a0672a%7C0%7C0%7C637233408964764202&sdata=2CeIpFmIgtOxzYp4rwRT%2BDFohzor%2Fd1q04bFVJD5S5k%3D&reserved=0

-Josh _______________________________________________ WLUG mailing list -- wlug@lists.wlug.org To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave@lists.wlug.org Create Account: https://wlug.mailman3.com/accounts/signup/ https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwlug.mailman3.com%2Faccounts%2Fsignup%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cisgelman%40wpi.edu%7Cf05208e4eadd46ae6c6308d7e868c25d%7C589c76f5ca1541f9884b55ec15a0672a%7C0%7C0%7C637233408964774194&sdata=wqPykvZr9jVyrp08ceUaTS83aJgjtNx1K0gxyRzbMpA%3D&reserved=0 Change Settings: https://wlug.mailman3.com/postorius/lists/wlug.lists.wlug.org/ https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwlug.mailman3.com%2Fpostorius%2Flists%2Fwlug.lists.wlug.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cisgelman%40wpi.edu%7Cf05208e4eadd46ae6c6308d7e868c25d%7C589c76f5ca1541f9884b55ec15a0672a%7C0%7C0%7C637233408964774194&sdata=7DMQPf6XOrtKUTbp4vzFR4Bt9PqqLZzFjY7AjkXUzCU%3D&reserved=0 Web Forum/Archive: https://wlug.mailman3.com/hyperkitty/list/wlug@lists.wlug.org/message/7AGYGF... https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwlug.mailman3.com%2Fhyperkitty%2Flist%2Fwlug%40lists.wlug.org%2Fmessage%2F7AGYGFV2BHV3GL5DZ4IGQY2ZTGRCCWKK%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cisgelman%40wpi.edu%7Cf05208e4eadd46ae6c6308d7e868c25d%7C589c76f5ca1541f9884b55ec15a0672a%7C0%7C0%7C637233408964774194&sdata=Cg%2B25wMU354RtV3Il%2FWJXffejShVKdSDatNHk7ajfGQ%3D&reserved=0

I'm similar. I've never had trouble installing Linux on a thinkpad... would be a little suspicious about having one with an "altered" distro installed. * Why can't they just offer instructions on how to get drivers working properly? * Will their "special" linux have all the bloatware that theiw Windows installs have? Yuck! --MCV. On 4/24/20 12:16 PM, Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG wrote:

For full disclosure, I purchase all of my laptops new (not used), all "top of the line" and ALL have been Thinkpads for the past quarter century, ever since I saw that Ted T'so was using one.

This was how my install of Ubuntu on my ThinkPad T470 went. Everything just works. The only thing I haven't bothered with is the fingerprint reader. Tim. On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:33 PM Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:

...

* Why can't they just offer instructions on how to get drivers working properly?

They will probably do this too, but you have to understand a couple of things.

(1) First, many customers do not want to "fiddle" with their purchases. They want to open the box, fill in their name, etc. and work (or play). (2) Secondly, it is one thing if you want to "fiddle" with one laptop you purchased, it is another thing if you have to "fiddle" with hundreds that you purchased for your company. (See Figure 1) (3) Stores want to have laptops on display. WE want to have GNU/Linux laptops on display. Stores do NOT want to have to "fiddle" with the laptop just to show GNU/Linux working. If the stores (particularly big box stores) have to "fiddle" THEY WILL NOT SHOW GNU/LINUX. (4) Computers "need" to ship with some OS on them. If GNU/Linux is not installed it will be MS (BSD? In your dreams. Nothing against BSD, but the numbers of units do not work). If MS is on there, the manufacturers and stores and customers will pay an MS "tax".

...

* Will their "special" linux have all the bloatware that theiw Windows installs have? Yuck!

That "bloatware" makes your laptop less expensive. The bloatware companies pay to have that bloatware on there. If it was not there, the laptops would cost more.

"rm" works. Use it.

md

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:21 PM Michael Voorhis via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:

...

I'm similar. I've never had trouble installing Linux on a thinkpad... would be a little suspicious about having one with an "altered" distro installed.

* Why can't they just offer instructions on how to get drivers working properly?

* Will their "special" linux have all the bloatware that theiw Windows installs have? Yuck!

--MCV.

On 4/24/20 12:16 PM, Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG wrote:

...

For full disclosure, I purchase all of my laptops new (not used), all "top of the line" and ALL have been Thinkpads for the past quarter century, ever since I saw that Ted T'so was using one.

---

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-- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

I also have a W510 kicking around here... While I was singing the T470's praises, I do have the following complaints... 1. It's fragile. You can't handle this the way you'd handle a W510 and expect it to last. 2. While it has two batteries, one of them is buried inside the laptop quite deeply. Yeah, you can change it out, but good luck... 3. This is a stupid one, but it should be noted.. it's internal speakers are garbage. It's clear they intend you to use BT or headphones... Beyond those complaints, it's a great machine. Long battery life, blisteringly fast disk. Tim. On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:08 PM Jon "maddog" Hall wrote:

I have a six-year-old Lenovo W510 "workstation" laptop that has both the fingerprint reader and a set of sensors that sense the colors on the LCD screen (used for coordinating the colors of a screen with a printer and a scanner). I easily got both of them working six years ago, but have not kept them up to date because I have not had a real use for them.

I may update the W510 with a new laptop after USB 4.x comes out. Having 40 Gbits/second is too tempting.

md

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:58 PM Tim Keller wrote:

...

This was how my install of Ubuntu on my ThinkPad T470 went. Everything just works. The only thing I haven't bothered with is the fingerprint reader.

Tim.

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:33 PM Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:

...

...

* Why can't they just offer instructions on how to get drivers working properly?

They will probably do this too, but you have to understand a couple of things.

(1) First, many customers do not want to "fiddle" with their purchases. They want to open the box, fill in their name, etc. and work (or play). (2) Secondly, it is one thing if you want to "fiddle" with one laptop you purchased, it is another thing if you have to "fiddle" with hundreds that you purchased for your company. (See Figure 1) (3) Stores want to have laptops on display. WE want to have GNU/Linux laptops on display. Stores do NOT want to have to "fiddle" with the laptop just to show GNU/Linux working. If the stores (particularly big box stores) have to "fiddle" THEY WILL NOT SHOW GNU/LINUX. (4) Computers "need" to ship with some OS on them. If GNU/Linux is not installed it will be MS (BSD? In your dreams. Nothing against BSD, but the numbers of units do not work). If MS is on there, the manufacturers and stores and customers will pay an MS "tax".

...

* Will their "special" linux have all the bloatware that theiw Windows installs have? Yuck!

That "bloatware" makes your laptop less expensive. The bloatware companies pay to have that bloatware on there. If it was not there, the laptops would cost more.

"rm" works. Use it.

md

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:21 PM Michael Voorhis via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:

...

I'm similar. I've never had trouble installing Linux on a thinkpad... would be a little suspicious about having one with an "altered" distro installed.

* Why can't they just offer instructions on how to get drivers working properly?

* Will their "special" linux have all the bloatware that theiw Windows installs have? Yuck!

--MCV.

On 4/24/20 12:16 PM, Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG wrote:

...

For full disclosure, I purchase all of my laptops new (not used), all "top of the line" and ALL have been Thinkpads for the past quarter century, ever since I saw that Ted T'so was using one.

---

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-- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

-- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

Few laptops are "perfect". From my own viewpoint, anyone that expects laptop speakers (and built in microphones) to be good is both dreaming and someone who wants to annoy their family members and office mates. Earphones...earphones. md On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:35 PM Michael Voorhis via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:

The speakers can't possibly be any worse than the ones on my gen6 x1 carbon.

On 4/24/20 1:34 PM, Tim Keller wrote:

...

This is a stupid one, but it should be noted.. it's internal speakers are garbage. It's clear they intend you to use BT or headphones...

---

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I think people are allowed to have some expectations of the speakers --

My expectations are that the speakers are bad at best and miserable at worst. I am seldom disappointed. md On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:20 PM Michael Voorhis via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:

I think people are allowed to have some expectations of the speakers -- within the context of those speakers being about 8x15mm in size of course. I doubt anyone expects to throw out their home stereo system (much better for annoying people anyway) after buying an ultraportable computer.

--MCV.

On 4/24/20 1:52 PM, Jon "maddog" Hall wrote:

...

From my own viewpoint, anyone that expects laptop speakers (and built in microphones) to be good is both dreaming and someone who wants to annoy their family members and office mates.

---

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Jon, I think that bloatware does in general help with subsidizing laptop costs, but that depends on the type of laptop and the licensing agreement that an OEM has with Microsoft. In general, business laptops have little bloatware compared to consumer lines, therefore it becomes easier to gauge how much of a "tax" Windows can have on those. For example, choosing FreeDOS instead of Windows can reduce the price of a HP Elitebook/ProBook by up to $230 if you check out the customization options: https://store.hp.com/us/en/mlp/laptops/elite-352503--1 https://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/laptops/hp-probook-11-x360--1 Dell Developer Edition laptops you can also generally expect to be about $50 cheaper than their Windows counterparts for the same hardware configuration. https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/laptops/new-13/spd/xps-13-9300-laptop -Josh On Fri, Apr 24, 2020, 13:09 Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG wrote:

I have a six-year-old Lenovo W510 "workstation" laptop that has both the fingerprint reader and a set of sensors that sense the colors on the LCD screen (used for coordinating the colors of a screen with a printer and a scanner). I easily got both of them working six years ago, but have not kept them up to date because I have not had a real use for them.

I may update the W510 with a new laptop after USB 4.x comes out. Having 40 Gbits/second is too tempting.

md

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:58 PM Tim Keller wrote:

...

This was how my install of Ubuntu on my ThinkPad T470 went. Everything just works. The only thing I haven't bothered with is the fingerprint reader.

Tim.

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:33 PM Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:

...

...

* Why can't they just offer instructions on how to get drivers working properly?

They will probably do this too, but you have to understand a couple of things.

(1) First, many customers do not want to "fiddle" with their purchases. They want to open the box, fill in their name, etc. and work (or play). (2) Secondly, it is one thing if you want to "fiddle" with one laptop you purchased, it is another thing if you have to "fiddle" with hundreds that you purchased for your company. (See Figure 1) (3) Stores want to have laptops on display. WE want to have GNU/Linux laptops on display. Stores do NOT want to have to "fiddle" with the laptop just to show GNU/Linux working. If the stores (particularly big box stores) have to "fiddle" THEY WILL NOT SHOW GNU/LINUX. (4) Computers "need" to ship with some OS on them. If GNU/Linux is not installed it will be MS (BSD? In your dreams. Nothing against BSD, but the numbers of units do not work). If MS is on there, the manufacturers and stores and customers will pay an MS "tax".

...

* Will their "special" linux have all the bloatware that theiw Windows installs have? Yuck!

That "bloatware" makes your laptop less expensive. The bloatware companies pay to have that bloatware on there. If it was not there, the laptops would cost more.

"rm" works. Use it.

md

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:21 PM Michael Voorhis via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:

...

I'm similar. I've never had trouble installing Linux on a thinkpad... would be a little suspicious about having one with an "altered" distro installed.

* Why can't they just offer instructions on how to get drivers working properly?

* Will their "special" linux have all the bloatware that theiw Windows installs have? Yuck!

--MCV.

On 4/24/20 12:16 PM, Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG wrote:

...

For full disclosure, I purchase all of my laptops new (not used), all "top of the line" and ALL have been Thinkpads for the past quarter century, ever since I saw that Ted T'so was using one.

---

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-- I am leery of the allegiances of any politician who refers to their constituents as "consumers".

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Considering Thinkpads are Lenovo's business line and Lenovo already has good firmware update support (https://fwupd.org/lvfs/devices/), Lenovo should be able to learn lessons from previous OEM attempts to provide good support. This feels very different from before where Linux was relegated to cheap computers (remember Moblin?), giving people the impression that Linux was a low quality OS. Now we're seeing big players cooperate to provide official support on premium computers, with official packages to boot! I think Fedora on its own is a great choice for a pre-installed distro too. Fedora is very upstream-friendly, and since it has a policy of updating the kernel and drivers quickly with few modifications, it's generally a good indicator of overall Linux distro support. -Josh On Fri, Apr 24, 2020, 12:17 Jon "maddog" Hall wrote:

For full disclosure, I purchase all of my laptops new (not used), all "top of the line" and ALL have been Thinkpads for the past quarter century, ever since I saw that Ted T'so was using one.

md

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:14 PM Jon "maddog" Hall < jon.maddog.hall@gmail.com> wrote:

...

No idea, but since IBM now owns Red Hat, and since the President of IBM is now Jim Whitehurst who was the former President and CEO of Red Hat, I will assume that even though IBM no longer owns Lenovo that there may be a range of laptops that run Fedora, not just "the low end".

Just guessin'

md

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:10 PM Gelman, Ian S. wrote:

...

Do we think Lenovo will apply Dell's lessons learned from the early 2010s back when they tried to ship Ubuntu on their entry-level laptops?

Ian (from mobile device)

------------------------------ *From:* Jon "maddog" Hall via WLUG *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2020 12:01:01 PM *To:* Worcester Linux Users' Group General Discussion < wlug@lists.wlug.org> *Cc:* Joshua Stone ; Jon "maddog" Hall < jon.maddog.hall@gmail.com> *Subject:* [EXT] [WLUG] Re: Lenovo shipping Linux pre-installed

Hi,

In theory this will help other GNU/Linux distros too, since eventually the device drivers for all of the parts of the laptops will go upstream and down to the distributions.

My findings with Lenovo (and IBM before them) was that they had pretty good support for the devices anyway, it is just that you might have to "dicker" with them to get the support working. I always attributed this (in the beginning anyway) to Ted T'so working for IBM and using Thinkpads as his own, personal laptop...but that might just be urban legend.

Good news in any case.

md

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:56 AM Joshua Stone via WLUG < wlug@lists.wlug.org> wrote:

Hey everyone,

Apparently Lenovo is planning on shipping Fedora on their Thinkpad lines, and will use only packages from the official repos instead of custom packages.

I think this is great news as somebody who shopped for Thinkpads before and had to contact support about refunding a Windows license (turns out that wasn't possible at the time). Having a distro pre-installed should mean improved hardware compatibility, and maybe even be able contact support for Linux-specific issues.

More info here:

https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops/ https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffedoramagazine.org%2Fcoming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cisgelman%40wpi.edu%7Cf05208e4eadd46ae6c6308d7e868c25d%7C589c76f5ca1541f9884b55ec15a0672a%7C0%7C0%7C637233408964764202&sdata=2CeIpFmIgtOxzYp4rwRT%2BDFohzor%2Fd1q04bFVJD5S5k%3D&reserved=0

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