Linux from Scratch - anyone use this?
As a recent newcomer to this group ... I've lurked about a bit .. but now I have a question: Has anyone used or is anyone using the Linux from Scratch project? I've built several systems through it -- however none exist today ; Mainly it has been a learning experience for me. I'm looking to actually create and stick with a LFS creation in the upcoming future. So - thoughts ? Advice ? Thanks, Alexander
Alexander Haley wrote:
As a recent newcomer to this group ... I've lurked about a bit .. but now I have a question:
Has anyone used or is anyone using the Linux from Scratch project?
I've built several systems through it -- however none exist today ; Mainly it has been a learning experience for me. I'm looking to actually create and stick with a LFS creation in the upcoming future.
So - thoughts ? Advice ?
I did it once for a school project. The main problem with sticking with it is there isn't any package management, so you have to keep abreast of security / feature updates and make sure everything plays nicely with everything else. Might I inquire why you want to put yourself through that? It's a fun experience but the system gets outdated very fast. If you're tried of binary distros I would suggest Gentoo. It's a fun meta-distro that is built from scratch but with a package management system. Also, if you ever find the hankering to build your packages from scratch you can and just tell portage so it doesn't clobber stuff. I'm very curious as to your motivations though so please share (if you don't mind) -- Eric Martin Key fingerprint = D1C4 086E DBB5 C18E 6FDA B215 6A25 7174 A941 3B9F
So ... my motivations are a deep distrust and loathing when I type:
apt-get tiny-application
and I'm then asked to install six hundred and twenty four other libraries ...
Now, I love ubuntu - sure it is easy and easy is good .. right ... and
I've been pretty much using Debian or Ubuntu on some machine, in some
form ... since 1998 ...
but .. I'm always getting into trouble with the package management
system ... I'm always skimming around looking at the more obscure
installed libraries thinking "gee, no one uses lib-foo-bar-zap" ...
uninstalling it .. and then discovering just who indeed uses
lib-foo-bar-zap ...
So .. when it comes to my known style of system management ... easy
isn't good .. it merely leads my inevitable tinkering into trouble.
THUS - if I make the system "100% tinkering" .. well - I'll have to
tow a straighter line .. if I want the darned thing to work!
make sense?
I did try gentoo once ... but ... I wasn't happy ... again probably
due to my irresistible "lets tinker" nature...
-Alex, who once wished that sudo included a breathalyzer check ...
On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Eric Martin
Might I inquire why you want to put yourself through that? It's a fun experience but the system gets outdated very fast. If you're tried of binary distros I would suggest Gentoo. It's a fun meta-distro that is built from scratch but with a package management system. Also, if you ever find the hankering to build your packages from scratch you can and just tell portage so it doesn't clobber stuff.
I'm very curious as to your motivations though so please share (if you don't mind)
Alexander> So ... my motivations are a deep distrust and loathing when Alexander> I type: apt-get tiny-application Alexander> and I'm then asked to install six hundred and twenty four Alexander> other libraries ... Hmm... I'm not sure that *any* distro is going to make you happy then. What about if you go with 'gentoo' and do 'emerge tiny-application' and it goes off and compiles a whole bunch of libraries and installes them for you? Is that better or worse? For example, have you tried using 'f-spot' and being amazed at how much crap it installs? And it's not a huge huge program by any means. Alexander> Now, I love ubuntu - sure it is easy and easy is good Alexander> .. right ... and I've been pretty much using Debian or Alexander> Ubuntu on some machine, in some form ... since 1998 ... I've been using 'apt-get --purge autoremove' to cleanup stuff like that. Pretty darn simple. Alexander> but .. I'm always getting into trouble with the package Alexander> management system ... I'm always skimming around looking at Alexander> the more obscure installed libraries thinking "gee, no one Alexander> uses lib-foo-bar-zap" ... uninstalling it .. and then Alexander> discovering just who indeed uses lib-foo-bar-zap ... Why? Why do you care? Are you short on disk space? Or just compulsivley anal about knowing why a library is on there? *grin* Alexander> So .. when it comes to my known style of system management Alexander> ... easy isn't good .. it merely leads my inevitable Alexander> tinkering into trouble. I can see that. Alexander> THUS - if I make the system "100% tinkering" .. well - I'll Alexander> have to tow a straighter line .. if I want the darned thing Alexander> to work! Alexander> make sense? Not really. :] If you want a system that works (which I agree with!) it might make sense to build a base system which is stable and only gets security updates, then run a virtual machine (or two or thre...) in which you have your playground to test out new apps, etc. Alexander> I did try gentoo once ... but ... I wasn't happy ... again Alexander> probably due to my irresistible "lets tinker" nature... An urge to 'Let's tinker' is both a good and bad thing for a SysAdmin to have. And why we hate users. :] Sorry, no real answers, because I don't think you're going to find one that makes you happy. The urge to cleanup is nice, but counter productive unless your on an embedded device which can't handle all the excess libraries. It's not an easy battle to solve. John
I've been using 'apt-get --purge autoremove' to cleanup stuff like that. Pretty darn simple.
Perhaps I've a compulsion ... I'm always taking that the next step ... "lets see what else we can remove" ....
Why? Why do you care? Are you short on disk space? Or just compulsivley anal about knowing why a library is on there? *grin*
Again - compulsive ? perhaps instead of wlug I should see a shrink... (:
I've been using 'apt-get --purge autoremove' to cleanup stuff like that. Pretty darn simple.
Alexander> Perhaps I've a compulsion ... I'm always taking that the Alexander> next step ... "lets see what else we can remove" .... I understand the urge, I've certainly had it myself at times. Not as much now with disk space cheap and my time more expensive (and wanting to spend it on other projects/time-sinks). Since I am a prof sysadmin, that colors my outlook here. :]
Why? Why do you care? Are you short on disk space? Or just compulsivley anal about knowing why a library is on there? *grin*
Alexander> Again - compulsive ? perhaps instead of wlug I should see a Alexander> shrink... Nah, just go and have fun and don't let me stop you. You might want to look at Slackware, or maybe one of the other uber-lite distros out there. The big way to get rid of stuff is to get rid of X and all the GUI stuff. Then you'll see real savings. John
From: "John Stoffel"
An urge to 'Let's tinker' is both a good and bad thing for a SysAdmin to have.
Did he say he was a studly-cap SysAdmin? I missed that. I took him to be talking about his own computer. If there aren't too many users paying the bills, then the Linux Way is to tinker.
... I don't think you're going to find one that makes you happy.
Maybe not one distribution, but maybe one or another package manager will look good. Learn to build your own package. I am not too familiar with all of them, but RPM builds packages from pristine source and then you can install from the package without the source, but you can always get the source version. The package is at its core a way to keep track of what you did to build it. You start Linux from Scratch, but when it comes time to put it on new hardware, you don't start over from scratch.
The urge to cleanup is nice, but counter productive unless your on an embedded device which can't handle all the excess libraries.
I will refrain from waxing on making and cleaning of messes, bloat, and the cause of all our grievances. The more package builders had Alexander's attitude the fewer SysAdmins would have Alexander's problem.
It's not an easy battle to solve.
< Insert here a classical quote. Don Quixote? Henry IV? Sun Tze?> -- Keith
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Alexander Haley
Did he say he was a studly-cap SysAdmin? no - just my own machine I can afford to muck about with
Thanks for everyone input ...
Hey Alex, you've got the skills, time and determination to maintain your system manually. I for one can't find a problem with that. I'd like to try LFS at some point when I have a bit more of the 3 traits I mention above. :-)
From: "John Stoffel"
An urge to 'Let's tinker' is both a good and bad thing for a SysAdmin to have.
Keith> Did he say he was a studly-cap SysAdmin? Did I? And ok, I'll just spell it out. Systems Administrator. Happy now? Keith> I missed that. I took him to be talking about his own Keith> computer. If there aren't too many users paying the bills, Keith> then the Linux Way is to tinker. Sure, absolutely. No arguement there. But if you are doing SysAdmin type work, then IMNSHO it's pointless to obsess over things like this.
... I don't think you're going to find one that makes you happy.
Keith> Maybe not one distribution, but maybe one or another package Keith> manager will look good. Learn to build your own package. I am Keith> not too familiar with all of them, but RPM builds packages from Keith> pristine source and then you can install from the package Keith> without the source, but you can always get the source version. I've done some work with RPM and .deb packages and both have learning curves. Not terrible, but curves none-the-less. And it's a good learning experience because it shows you all the details you do need to look out for when packaging something to be easily installed, upgraded and de-installed. 90% of all code is bounds and error checking. :] Which is boring and not fun to write and test, but vital for a successful package. Keith> The package is at its core a way to keep track of what you did Keith> to build it. You start Linux from Scratch, but when it comes Keith> time to put it on new hardware, you don't start over from Keith> scratch.
The urge to cleanup is nice, but counter productive unless your on an embedded device which can't handle all the excess libraries.
Keith> I will refrain from waxing on making and cleaning of messes, Keith> bloat, and the cause of all our grievances. You mistake my arguements. I'm not arguing that bloat is good, I'm arguing that trying to compulsively shrink a system might not be a good use of time/resources. But it depends. Keith> The more package builders had Alexander's attitude the fewer Keith> SysAdmins would have Alexander's problem. Well, it's also GUI toolkits, GUI designers who can't/won't pack information into a smaller display area, etc. I don't have the time to writeup a diatrabe here, so I'll just drop it now. :] John
From: "John Stoffel"
From: "John Stoffel"
An urge to 'Let's tinker' is both a good and bad thing for a SysAdmin to have.
Keith> Did he say he was a studly-cap SysAdmin?
Did I? And ok, I'll just spell it out. Systems Administrator. Happy now?
(NB: the word "he" when I wrote it refered to Alexander. The word "I" when John writes it refers to John. Whether that is a cause or effect of confusion, I am not sure.) "Call no man happy until he is dead." -- Aeschylus, Herodotus, or Solon? With due regard to that perspective, I am happy now, and happy before. I now am quite sure that John is, and Alexander is not, a SysAdmin. That was my guess.
Keith> I missed that. I took him to be talking about Keith> his own computer. If there aren't too many Keith> users paying the bills, then the Linux Way is Keith> to tinker.
Sure, absolutely. No arguement there. But if you are doing SysAdmin type work, then IMNSHO it's pointless to obsess over things like this.
No argument there, and none here. My last message was intended to point out that your different context makes the truth you chose to express less relevant to Alexander's obsession. -- Keith PS: I just thought of "Damn Small Linux". I know nothing about it, but it might be a good phrase for the tight-code-obsessed to Google.
Here's another take on building your own distro using packages from Fedora and Fedora-compatible repositories: http://www.pcplus.co.uk/node/3020
participants (6)
-
Alexander Haley -
Chuck Anderson -
Eric Martin -
James Gray -
John Stoffel -
Keith Wright